<p>with a name like Zelda Fitzgerald, we cannot expect the girl to not embellish, for effect! sheesh. :D</p>
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<p>There was just a big deal about hazing at my high school last fall. It seems the upper classmen were “giving” the freshman their ABC’s as new members of the cross country team. When on a long run they would wait until they were out of site of any adults, “capture” a freshman, then punch him in the chest 26 times while saying the ABC’s…apparently a tradition with many of the male sports teams. Seems like a guy thing.</p>
<p>@ Zelda: I have personally heard the urban legends of how your parents tax returns are required, however this seems to be a myth that is common among independents. </p>
<p>As to your two examples:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>of the overweight girl: yes there are chapters that are image conscious but there are also chapters that are grade conscious… every school has at least a few sororities where not only the overweight but also the obese are often members. They usually are the house with the high GPA</p>
<ol>
<li>The poor: I have 4 brothers that served in the war before coming to college. Besides the GI bill and Fin Aid they do not have a penny to their name. Dont believe that every fraternal organization is filled with old money, there are lots of just normal people. Even in your better off fraternities there are many children of 30K millie’s.</li>
</ol></li>
</ol>
<p>UCLABandMom: As an alum of one school and a graduate of UCLA, you are a “credit” to that university. Grow up.</p>
<p>Since my daughter attends the school across town AND is in a sorority I am going to second the nonsense that pnms must submit financial statements and/or an organization runs a D and B. Never happens. In my daughter’s sorority there is a wide range of racial and religious and financial diversity. </p>
<p>To return to the original subject: Sisterhood. When I was undergoing chemo my sisters (from MANY years ago) made two trees. One was to call and one was to bring food to my family. The food tree worked, the phone one didn’t work. Why? Because my friends (and sisters) didn’t want to wait for their appointed and artificial time slots. They called, they showed up at my house and in the chemo room. That is what sisterhood is about.</p>
<p>Basically, fraternities and sororities are supposed to be values-based organizations which foster tight friendships and leadership. When they err from that and do things such as hazing, irresponsible partying, and binge drinking, those are examples of the membership doing something in contrast to the actual goals and missions of their organization.</p>
<p>By prosecuting bad-behaving members and issuing 5yr suspensions, the organization is purged of the membership and culture that’s running counter to its positive goals. When a fraternity comes back after a suspension, it’s basically a clean slate where new members start again based on the official values / goals / rules (which are positive) without any of the culture that runs counter to those ideals.</p>
<p>Calling for a permanent ban on a certain chapter is like saying that LA shouldn’t have a police department at all because of issues such as the Rampart scandal and Rodney King. A 5yr suspension, on the other hand, is equivalent to a reorganization where all the original people involved are fired. On the other hand, if an organization is inherently bad in its actual goals (i.e. KKK), then a permanent ban makes sense.</p>
<p>Gosh, no fraternities or sororities I knew of ever trash talked one another (or trash talked those who were not in the Greek system) the way that USC and UCLA boosters trash talk one another.</p>
<p>Maybe discussion of frats should be moved to another thread. I think there are significant enough differences with sororities that discussion of the problems of frats really aren’t relevant.</p>
<p>I’ve come to the conclusion that if there is at least one wonderful Greek system, and at least one terrible one, then these kinds of discussions are not really all that helpful, and the real answer is research into the specific system at specific schools. I started another thread with some questions somebody might ask to understand how the system works at specific schools.</p>
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<p>Dartmouth financial aid can be applied to house costs, especially rooming. (Residents of the houses, whether frats, sororities, or coed organizations, have to participate in the college meal plan with everyone else.) When My S pledged, he was receiving virtually a full ride. The college does not wish students with less money to be excluded from Greek life or the similar coed houses, if they wish to join. We give him no spending money: he earns it himself. Some of his brothers are apparently supported in style by their parents, others support themselves. There is no discrimination.</p>
<p>I should add that D’s Greek scene is unusually open, and from what I’ve read here, nothing like the SEC, for example. I doubt that my S would have chosen to pledge at most other schools. For that matter, there are many houses at D that he would never have considered. An advantage of the D system is that rush does not take place until sophomore year, so kids can know the houses better and make a more informed decision if they do pledge. </p>
<p>I’m not saying it is flawless, but it isn’t an embodiment of all of the negative stereotypes, either.</p>
<p>My D quit her sorority after a year and a half because 1) she got a boyfriend, which made all the “raids” (drunken parties) with the frats and sports teams pointless 2) the boyfriend wasn’t allowed in the sorority house 3) they had rush every quarter and she had to buy endless outfits and lose a whole week of studying/working 4) she didn’t enjoy the girl drama that goes with having that many women in one place 5) they raised the fees substantially. Basically she was spending a lot of money on mandatory T-shirts and clothes but wasn’t getting anything out of it. She made better friends with more interests in common on the ski team. I will say there is an awful lot of drinking that seems to go along with the Greek system. yes, it’s true that goes on all over campus, but with the Greek system it seems to be exaggerated. Her boyfriend is in a frat and there was a lot of hazing involving copious amounts of alcohol too. I think she learned a lesson that being in a “top” sorority where looks are priority number one was a mistake. She learned that along with that goes a lot of peer pressure to be thin and perfect.</p>
<p>I don’t remember having to turn in a tax return. It’s actually cheaper to live in a house and that’s one of main reason my daughter joined one. She was not too keen in joining one freshman year.</p>
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<p>And the bad analogies continue to pile up.</p>
<p>I agree that fraternities and sororities can do a lot of wonderful things. There are a number of them that probably have more tallies in the good deed column, way many more, than its transgressions, if any. I still disagree with the whole idea of the Greek system and wish it could just be obliterated.</p>
<p>The problem with this system is that it immediately hits students in a very vulnerable place at a time when mental illness and other issues are all popping up. Young adults are particularly conscious of being excluded, ostracized, not liked, and the whole rush and selection process really exacerbates these concerns. That’s what I hate about that system. Open it all up, so any one can join with behavior requirements so that the bad eggs are thrown out, and maybe I’ll change my mind. But I truly think this system hurts more kids than it helps.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse-there are schools (not many, mind you) that guarantee a sorority bid. Some of them guarantee it if the girl maximizes her options and attends all parties, and other schools guarantee that if a girl makes it to preference night, she will get a bid.</p>
<p>Certainly this is not happening at the large SEC or BigTen schools, but it is happening at many schools with small Greek systems in general. Recruitment is a crazy process as well, but at many schools there is also informal rush that is much more casual and mellow. Not all chapters or potential new members shine in 20-45 minute parties. </p>
<p>My biggest argument for not allowing anyone to join is that this group is more than a typical club. If I don’t like everyone in the theater group, I just have to be civil with them during that play/meeting/rehearsal. If I am bound to someone that I have to live with for 3 years, share my most important college memories and trust them with the secrets of myself and my sisters, I want to feel that this person can be and will be my sister. That doesn’t mean that this girl doesn’t belong in a house, but maybe not mine.</p>
<p>UCLA does guarantee placement. It might not be a girl’s top choice, but she is guaranteed a bid if she goes all the way through. USC has more girls who drop out because they want a certain house(s) and it doesn’t work out. But, if you follow through you will probably get a bid. Some of my friend’s daughters attend other UCs where they say bids are guaranteed.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, open it up so any one can join your house is crazy. I had to live with these people. If I didn’t like the person, I certainly didn’t want them as a housemate. </p>
<p>Your college freshman has just gone thru one of the hardest, most intense selection processes known to man; it’s called the college admissions process. For me, fraternity rush was a piece of cake compared to what I had just gone thru. </p>
<p>All thru life, you will be judged and sometimes granted admission, sometimes rejected. It happens when you try out for a sports team, for a band position, for grad school, for a job, for a promotion. If it causes issues for you, better to address them earlier rather than later.</p>
<p>I agree that you are judged all of your life. It’s just that this is a judgment at a particularly vulnerable time in life. It is not true to address some things earlier than later. I think that the selection process is really more of a popularity contest than based on any true attributes. For jobs, promotions, grades, college, it is based on achievement. At this time in one’s young adult life, it leads to behavior and attitudes that can really hurt people at a most sensitive time. The risk of all kinds of behavioral, emotional, mental issues is higher at this time of your life than any other and the stresses of being away from home, supervision with pressures to achieve are also high. It is a stress that most kids do not need. I think it does more people more harm than good. Yes, it’s fun and wonderful for those who get what they want, but for those who don’t it hurts, and the benefits do not outweigh those disadvantages.</p>
<p>Just to point out that even at big southern rushes like Bama, Auburn etc, 80%+ receive a bid. The % that are cut from all houses is tiny and this is primarily due to not having the minimum grades. Most of that 20% that don’t receive a bid drop out because they don’t get the invites back that they want. Remember that sorority rush is designed to place the most women in each sorority, taking into account both rushees’ and chapters’ preferences. This means that is 1000 register for rush and there are 10 houses, then quota will be around 100. If only 100 rush, quota will be 10. The ‘competitiveness’ comes from girls only wanting certain houses…hence the advice to keep an open mind and stay in the process all the way through!</p>
<p>From the Auburn Panhellenic website:-</p>
<p>Over the past 4 years, only 6.2% of potential members were released from recruitment, either during the week or on Bid Day. We know that 3.7% were true releases in that they reached a point in the week when they received no invitations. However, the remaining 2.5% of them were released on Bid Day. That 2.5% is made of 118 women (over a four year period), who all listed fewer options than those available to them in their final preferences. So, of the 118 women released on Bid Day, all were released because they chose to list only one or two sororities in their preferences and would have been placed in a chapter had they maximized their options for joining. In other words, all of them would have received a bid from a sorority had they simply been more open minded and listed all of their preferences.</p>
<p>Although it is a small proportion of our potential members, the women released from recruitment are a very important population to us. Here are some of the scenarios in which a potential member might be released:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Some potential members will reach a point in the week when no chapters invite them back for the next round of Recruitment events. Be aware that this might happen at any time. As mentioned above, this happens with about 3.7% of potential members. The number of invitations a woman receives at one round is not indicative of whether or not she might be released at the next. If a potential member has two chapters inviting her back after the first round of parties, it is very possible that she will attend these parties all the way to preference round and receive a bid. Also, some releases are women who received the full amount of invitations the day before. It is important to know that most sororities will make their largest releases at the beginning of the week. So, most potential members will not receive the full amount of invitations after this round. Keep that in mind when talking to your daughter and don’t take a low amount of invitations as a sign of an impending release.</p></li>
<li><p>The other way that potential members are released from recruitment involves not receiving a bid through bid matching. When a potential member submits her preferences, Panhellenic uses a system that will work to place her in her first choice. If we are unable, we will then begin trying to place her in her second choice before trying to place her in her third choice. The actual mechanics of the system are too difficult to explain, but if a potential member is not placed, it means that she was ranked low in the preference list of all chapters she indicated a willingness to join. The order you rank the sororities in your preference selections affects which chapter you join, but it can’t change whether you receive a bid or not. However, most potential members who are not matched with a sorority are left unmatched because they chose not to list a particular sorority. In most cases, women who are released in this way would have received a bid had they maximized their options by indicating a preference for every chapter they attended for preference round. Please know that the sorority they would have matched would be the one they chose not to list, but they still would have had a bid. It is a misconception that listing a chapter you truly don’t want to join will help you get a bid into the one that you want. This is not true. Listing all of your options increases your chance of getting a bid in general."</p></li>
</ul>
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<p>…which is why college students are looking for a support system away from home, and they find it in the Greek system.</p>
<p>cpt,
I think you are looking at the process backwards. Sororities and fraternities continue to thrive because they fill an important social and emotional need for young adults at this stage of their lives.</p>
<p>Even on campuses where the Greek system is banned and “obliterated,” it often continues on, even growing larger, independently off-campus, without any support of the college administration (e.g., at Harvard).</p>