@hpcsa
By minor, I meant something like having a major in physics and a minor in mathematics or some engineering discipline. I’ve only seen dual degrees for those.
@QB18ND23 You may either choose from one the minors offered by the College of Science (in the example of Physics) https://science.nd.edu/undergraduate/minors/ or choose from any of the open minor programs offered by one of the other ND Colleges. This might be a good point in time for you to establish direct contact with your First-Year of Studies and/or dedicated College Advisors, who you will be meeting up with regularly during Welcome Weekend and beyond: https://registrar.nd.edu/pdf/advisor_list.pdf
I’ll go ahead and say that you may be better off elsewhere. Within the realm of top schools, ND is definitely more career/pragmatic than most. Its not a trade school of course, but business and pre-professional MD/JD are a big portion of the student body. They attend with defintive career goals in mind. Based on what you’ve said, sounds like you should have chosen a LAC.
That said, I think that, like many smart 18 year olds, you dont know as near much about life or yourself as you think you do. As such, your values may change quite a bit.
@hackeysack This really never was an option for the OP. As Questbridge applicant he was matched with Notre Dame, which works like ED on steroids. He only included Notre Dame in his ranking, not necessarily as first place, Notre Dame, that can not see his ranking, selected him - he/she was then matched by Questbridge to the highest ranking school on his list that had selected him.
On this forum we all should hope that OP’s integration into the ND student body will go well and advise accordingly, as OP, due to his Questbridge scholarship and exceedingly low family income that qualified him/her for the program, will not have the option of transferring out, if things should not go as smoothly as expected for any reason.
By the way, just for the record, Notre Dame offers many excellent ‘Arts and Crafts’ Majors (a descriptor used by Notre Dame pre-professional students), noticeably more than most small to medium sized LAC’s.
The reality is many students go to college to increase their earnings potential. Many people would not be footing these big bills otherwise. So average starting salaries and job placement stats are used by many parents and students alike to make college decisions. Intellectualism is wonderful but many don’t want to make an expensive investment that does have a return. Idealism and reality don’t always go hand in hand. its a matter of balancing the two.
@hpcsa - fair point on questbridge, I guess one could say he shouldnt have listed ND as someone who is concerned about too much career focus. Perhaps he should have listed a place where intellectualism more prevalent. As you note, that’s his school, whatever the fit may be.
As to the number of excellent majors offered at ND vs a LAC, that’s not really the point. Compared to many other campuses at its level of selectivity, ND is more career oriented/practical than many others. Its a culture / “vibe” question, not a count of majors that he is asking about. This is fairly well known about ND, no?
@sbubadive Right on the money (pun intended). Normally, this is specifically true for first-generation and low income college students:
“… compared to non-first-generation students, first-generation students prefer the following majors: Computer Science & Math, Education, Engineering, Health, Psychology & Social Work, and Social Science. These same students are less drawn towards the following majors: Arts, Biology & Life Sciences, Business, Communication, and Humanities & Liberal Arts. The majors groups that first-generation students prefer tended to have low unemployment, high average wages, and a high occupational concentration.”
In fact, the opposite effect is true as well: “Rich Kids Study English - How Does Choice of College Major Correlate With Parents’ Household Income?”
@hackeysack
When I ranked Notre Dame for QB, I was still intending to major in engineering (in large part due to the money). It was only after I matched that I started thinking about it more. I realized that studying something for money is something I cannot defend in my conscience. I quite literally lost sleep for several days because of that thought. So, in the interest of not going mad, I’m choosing to focus on academics as a pursuit in and of itself, with no “practical” goal in mind.
I am happy to have matched to Notre Dame. If I hadn’t, then I likely wouldn’t be able to get higher education at all.
The fear that prompted this thread was that Notre Dame wouldn’t be supportive of students who aren’t in it for the money. From the responses I’ve seen, it seems to me that Notre Dame, like any elite institution, has the resources to meet the interests of any student. A student focused on maximizing their income out of college will be provided with the tools for doing so. Likewise, a student intent on making their academic achievements as impressive as possible will also be given the resources to do so. My own will is the only requirement.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, our experience visiting ND was the engineering department was one of the most NON career readiness focused that we toured. The message from everyone we met was about the culture of the school, volunteering, mission work, personal connections while at school, etc… When D asked a prof about specific research she was interested in, the answer was that it didn’t matter if nothing of the kind was happening at ND and that she could do that later in grad school. IMO, OP made a very good choice matching with ND.
Just to speak up in support of Notre Dame’s College of Arts and Letters here: it is by far the largest College at Notre Dame with 3,000+ Undergraduate, offering 67 different majors and minors, as well as 1,100 Graduate Students. One of the NDAL’s many outstanding achievements is that 97% of Arts and Letters majors find success within six months of graduation. Notre Dame had 30 Fulbright winners in 2017, most in college history, and 14 Rhodes Scholars, including back-to-back winners in 2015, 2016, and 2017.
@momofsenior1
Is that right? From what you saw, what would you say about the involvement of undergrads in research? Is it something that’s made readily available to those who want it, or only to the very best?
I wonder if the ease of participation in research differs in physics.
@hpcsa
Those data are interesting. I would’ve thought that business would be a preferred major among low-income students when compared to, say, social work.
The undergrads we talked to were involved in research.
My daughter had a very specific interest though that wasn’t being worked on by any profs and there didn’t seem to be an openness to mentoring her in that area.
QB - Everyone here is hoping you have a great experience at ND. My youngest just finished his sophomore year as part of the business school, one of those pre-professional, upper-middle class kids who make up a majority of the student population of ND and similar colleges. His roommate is an engineering major, and I have been a working engineer for 30 years. I hope I can add some insights to what you are about to experience.
First, engineers are paid to get technical stuff done. Some lean more technical, some are a little less technical but better at getting things done, the best are really good at both, but the commonality among engineers is the ability to get a project to completion. We like designing and building stuff. If you have an engineer’s mentality, study engineering. If you have a scientist’s leaning, study that. Do not base your decision off of a pamphlet. ND has excellent advising and can help you figure this out. Son’s roommate started doing research in his second semester, did research all this year, and is in another country this summer (winter again for him) doing research, travel paid for by scholarships.
Second, do not discount the intellectualism of the students just because they want to start in lucrative careers. They all got there the same way, by having an affinity for learning. Every student is smart. ND attracts and selects people with an aptitude and capacity for service to others. The result is an extremely engaging place. S talks about this often, though he does say it is hard to make new friends because everyone is so busy.
Third, don’t count on those lucrative careers you see other ND physics majors getting being available to you. You will be competing for those internships and jobs with other students at ND and similar colleges, ones who may have inside contacts and a carefully crafted resume of accomplishments. I am friends with the president of a consulting company and I couldn’t even get my son an interview this year. Instead, they chose college-age relatives of people who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with his company. You will need to be really good on your own. You will need to develop valuable skills and develop your own network.
Fourth, I would recommend against using graduate school as part of your undergraduate plan. A lot of very bright students hit a bump in the road during their undergraduate time. Or they change majors, or their plans change. Son’s roommate, the engineering major, still has a goal of medical school, but has a secondary plan to work as an engineer. He is not counting on getting that second diploma.
One last bit of advice (finally) - it is OK to be an atheist at a Catholic U, and OK to talk about it, but please do not be antagonistic about it. Faith is an important component to most of the students, and it is the donations of the faithful who keep the doors open for those who need the help (my son is on scholarships also, just not as much). They are just hoping you pay it forward in your own way. Best of luck.
You can be an engineer and do good in the world & your career. It’s not mutually exclusive. Work on green energy (solve the issues with getting electricity by tapping the tide, and you’ll change the world), public transit, hazardous waste cleanup. robotics related to rescue or firefighting, work for NASA, engineering related to medical devices (devices for rehab or assisted living, for example), recyclable materials, or water treatment. The same is true for studying something like business. Non-profits need business skills, too. So you don’t need to have sleepless nights over choosing a path like that if you are intentional about your choices for internships and coursework to point yourself in a direction like that.
@intparent
The problem is that I am not the kind of person that is satisfied by a middle-of-the-road existence. From what I’ve seen, the high-paying areas of engineering aren’t in renewable energy, but in things like petroleum engineering and computers. Choosing engineering with the vague goal of doing something good in the world will leave me unsatisfied on both ends.
I will keep an open mind. In fact, I will probably opt for the engineering-undecided first year plan so that I can take their introduction to engineering course. If I find something in engineering that is so interesting that I would choose it over physics if both paid the same, then I will gladly major in the appropriate field of engineering. But that can only happen if that condition is met. I do not know enough to be intentional, as you say, when it comes to engineering. All I see, and all I can be motivated by at this point, is the salary.
@Magnetron
I do not know yet what mindset I have. For all I know, I may be too stupid for any of this. The way I see it, I may as well study physics and have the option for engineering later on. The reverse doesn’t quite work as well.
Oh, I’m not at all antagonistic about it. As I said before, I just graduated from a Christian high school. What’s more, I spent my last year with a Christian family whose parents teach at the school (my own family had to leave due to finances). The essay I wrote for the university talked about the respect I had developed for the faith and my interest in continuing to be around people who practice it.
Never enter a field that you are not both passionate and proud of. Instead, challenge yourself along side the many brilliant students you may meet with similar aspirations - there are many.
Out of curiosity, does anyone here have a link to the science pamphlet Notre Dame sends to admitted students who expressed an interest in the sciences? I’d be interested in seeing the differences.