Academic dismissal from Ivy League school

Parents Forum
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I’d agree with you, if you said A’s. However, B’s are a different story since at many highly selective colleges the vast majority receive B’s or higher, while at some less selective colleges only about half receive B’s. For example, the percentage of students that reported a grade of B- or better in Differential Equations at various colleges, as listed in CourseRank is below. I chose DE instead of calc, so the results would be mostly tech majors. Is it easier to get a grade among the top 93% at Stanford or Dartmouth than the top 59% at SUNY Binghamton? </p>

<p>Stanford – 93%
Dartmouth – 93%
Cornell – 87%
Princeton – 85%
Duke – 81%
Case Western – 79%
UNC: Chapel Hill – 69%
UC: Berkeley – 63%
UNC: Charolette – 62%
SUNY: Binghamton – 59%</p>

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<p>I agree with those who say that there is a need to figure out what went wrong. Right now, I am gathering that no one really knows. </p>

<p>For this reason, if it were my child I would favor a leave of absence. During that time, I would want DS to engage a counselor, be assessed for learning disabilities or inadequacies in study habits, take a few course locally, and have a job.</p>

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<p>Engineering courses are not subjective. It’s very difficult to make these classes easier or harder (although grades can be inflated as pointed out by Data10). Similar, or same, textbooks are used nationwide. Differential equations, Fluid Mechanics, Thermodynamics, Mechatronics…there’s no way to ‘dumb down’ these subjects. If you want to think there’s a difference between an A at Cornell and an A at Michigan, GT, UT, or other public engineering schools peace be with you, but that’s not the ‘argument’. If you’re not getting passing grades in engineering at Cornell (this means Bs in most in major classes to have the foundation to move ahead), you can not expect to earn anything different at a ‘public/state’ school. This is why others are telling you no ‘grace’ is given in a transfer application for a student from any specific school. You need at minimum passing grades in your engineering courses just for consideration, no matter what school you are coming from.</p>

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<p>I was not trying to belittle other schools when asking if there would be any consideration based on where he is now. Classes are graded to a curve. When most of your fellow students are valedictorians, NMS, and have 700+ SAT scores per subject, it may be harder to get a B vs the state school where the average student had significantly lower stats coming in. Sure, both places will have kids at the very top, but maye the competition for a B wouldn’t be as hard? I am asking, not judging…</p>

<p>The thing is…at other schools, those “average students with significantly lower stats” won’t be in Eng’g. this is a common misconception. </p>

<p>It sounds like your son’s test scores were around an ACT 28 or 1250 M+CR. If so, then at a good public, many/most of the eng’g students could be stronger, maybe much stronger, than that. </p>

<p>A large state school that “educates the masses” will have a wide range of students, but the best students are found in about 12 of the 100+ majors on a large campus. The best students are NOT spread out equally amongst the 100+ majors. </p>

<p>The school’s upper quartile is going to have a lot of Vals and Sals and high test score kids. IF the school gives large merit for National Merit, then there will be many of those, too. Those upper quartile kids are LARGELY found in eng’g, math, physics, chem, bio, English, The Classics, Finance, and a few other majors. I’m not saying that the students will all match ivy students, but they will be very strong students, many with test scores higher than your son’s, and there will be a “fight” for the top grades. </p>

<p>I’m curious…with test scores in the bottom 10% of his ivy school, what was his hook for admission? The bottom 10% test scorers are usually the athletes and other talents. They’re not usually hookless students.</p>

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<p>OP- not to be cruel, but at your typical State U, the less capable students are clustered in Leisure Studies, Early Childhood Education, Sports Management, etc. Not a knock on these fields-- but you and your son are kidding yourselves if you think the typical engineering profile at a State U looks at all like the students clustered in these majors. And some of these State U’s have brutal curves designed to knock out the less capable engineering students, so by Junior year, it’s already become a “Survival of the Fittest” experience.</p>

<p>There are a lot of fields that will take advantage of your son’s capabilities in math- Statistics, Finance, Economics, Urban Planning, Architecture. He needs to figure out what went wrong, obviously, before coming up with plan B-- but at some point, given his strengths, it seems to make sense to go in a different direction.</p>

<p>The Deans and counselors at his college will have seen this episode 100’s of times, and will be able to counsel him on his best options- and can tell him success stories of kids who have made a switch and done well. You will be in the best position to know if his insistence on staying in engineering is a personality trait (a kid who can’t admit failure, or can’t be objective about himself) or is just fear that he won’t find another discipline he’ll enjoy.</p>

<p>I get that he doesn’t like history or literature, but the social sciences are filled with sub-disciplines which are very quantitative (entire branch of political science that requires manipulating large datasets and is very math intensive; the entire field of econometrics; agronomy; etc.) and he may find that he really soars in one of these fields.</p>

<p>Hugs to you.</p>

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<p>I think the leave of absence option should be discussed with his current college. See if he can take some courses at a local community college. It is very possible they will want to see academic success before allowing him to return. </p>

<p>As noted above…doesn’t matter whether you were a HS val, or not…engineering courses are challenging. One very important thing my kid learned quickly…it was IMPOSSIBLE to catch up if you didn’t keep up with the work right from the start of the term.</p>

<p>I still think this student needs to understand WHY he was not successful in three college terms with these courses. Until that question is answered…it is my opinion you are throwing money away by continuing to pay for this school, and possibly any other.</p>

<p>Speaking from experience here…close family member flunked out of an Ivy. Was a physics major. Was out of school for 7 years before enrolling at a CC, and subsequently a local university to get an engineering degree. Short explanation…that Ivy and the timing were not right. But college many years later WAS right, but not at an Ivy.</p>

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<p>One poster suggested trying to get at the root of the issue: did the OP’s son put the hours of study in that was needed, did he attend every class, available study groups. Did the OP’s son reach out for help in any of the classes from either TAs or other students he knew. Blue Iguana hit the nail on the head. Engineering is engineering and it’s not all that different from uni to uni. The classes are the same, the textbooks may differ, but the curriculum is pretty much the same. And yes, in some unis that first two years is for weed out. My son told me that about 50% of his classmates didn’t get a C or better in Chemistry, didn’t get a C or better in the first required Calc class in the engineering track etc. etc. These are all kids that were “smart” in high school. My son gave up alot of “stuff” that freshman do in exchange for doing what he needed to do to make the cut. So has every engineer I know no matter what generation. It is what it is. I feel for the OP, but if her son really wants engineering than the best thing is to determine what went wrong and if nothing went “wrong” then he needs to pick a different major. We can analyze it to death, but until that gets figured out there is no “answer.” Whether this kid would have done “better” at Michigan or Georgia is unknown and will never be known…the same environment would have been there and available.</p>

<p>Many engineering unis “allow” kids to continue in the CoE classes on a semester by semester basis and only if they are making successful academic progress so it sounds like the OPs son has really “hit the wall” in terms of the next step. Hugs to you and your son.</p>

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<p>Remind your son that the advisory committee is not the enemy.
He has put himself in this unfortunate situation.
He was on academic probation, had chances to improve his gpa but did not meet requirements to stay enrolled.
He should listen respectfully and intently.
If he chooses to address the group, no pleading, no excuses, no grandiose promises on his part.
At the end of the meeting, he should thank them.
He should also be prepared to move out of the dorm, so pack empty bags and boxes in the car.</p>

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<p>There are a lot of fields that will take advantage of your son’s capabilities in math- Statistics, Finance, Economics, Urban Planning, Architecture. He needs to figure out what went wrong, obviously, before coming up with plan B-- but at some point, given his strengths, it seems to make sense to go in a different direction.</p>

<p>It looks like your son likes math and bio.
One thing that my math son found interesting to do when he did a REU was using math to make models for how disease pandemics spread (not sure if I’m explaining this right). But, I think he said that the way the pandemics spread can be demonstrated using math models. He really enjoyed the summer that he spent doing this. Although it wasn’t what he ultimately pursued in grad school, he still talks about how much he enjoyed that. (again, I know that I’m not explaining this with all the right jargon and so forth)</p>

<p>So, if your son likes math and bio, then maybe look for something that incorporates both strengths. Does he like statistics?</p>

<p>did the OP’s son put the hours of study in that was needed, did he attend every class, available study groups. Did the OP’s son reach out for help in any of the classes from either TAs or other students he knew.</p>

<p>The OP says that he did. So either he’s misled his mom…or he’s just in over his head…or he doesn’t know “how” to study…or there’s something deeper going on.</p>

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<p>@TNMOM my son is an engineering major at a state flagship. I just want to let you know that you truly have a skewed view of the kids attending these schools. The kids do sit around and talk…and these are not hard stats…but he has many vals, some NMSF, and the min ACT score to get into his program (honors) was 31. I share this to say that engineering is going to be filled with high achievers even at state schools. Also, about a third of his freshman honors engineering class intended to change their major as of the end of first semester due to poor fit.</p>

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<p>As Mom2 points out, the field of biostatistics is a growing one (not just how do pandemics spread… but modeling how cancer treatments will (or won’t) work among different demographic groups, figuring out the impact of environmental substances on people prone to asthma, even predicting the impact of genetic disorders on the public health system.) Great field for a kid who loves math and is interested in bio. But the Applied Math department at the kids college is likely to have a dozen professors who work in cool fields that kids ordinarily don’t think of as “math” (how do changes in census data impact voting patterns in Congressional districts; what is the impact on traffic of development of suburbs given current driving and commuting patterns; why does energy consumption differ between two cities with relatively similar populations and sizes; where should a new airport go in a city to optimize usage and relieve congestion in the existing airport… etc.)</p>

<p>I know many former engineers who get stuck thinking that the only cool jobs go to engineers. You can help your son get unstuck by learning about the many cool things that he can do given his skills and interests.</p>

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<p>*Quote:
Originally Posted by TNmom1
He needs a 3.5 next semester to bring his GPA up to the minimum 2.0 required by the school.</p>

<p>=============
Do you mean to say that he has three semesters of 1.5 GPA?*</p>

<p>Sure sounds like it.</p>

<p>OP…if your son does return, make sure he knows how many credits he has to take this semester in order to raise a 1.5 to a 3.5. Very likely 15 credits won’t cut it if he’s been taking more credits. If he was taking 16/17 credits each semester, then he needs to take at least 17 credits to bring up the GPA. </p>

<p>Many kids make this mistake when they try to get off probation.</p>

<p>I’m not sure if I’m explaining this right, but for example</p>

<p>Frosh Fall semester 16 credits …1.5 GPA
spring semester 17 credits …1.5 GPA
Soph Fall semester 17 credits…1.5 GPA
Spring semester 15 credits…3.5 GPA</p>

<p>The above would result in a 1.96 GPA…not high enough.</p>

<p>So, he needs to understand that he doesn’t just need “one semester” of a 3.5…he needs enough credits in that semester with a 3.5.</p>

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<p>My middle son is probably your ‘classic engineer’, mech’e. Anything that’s not black and white is frankly a struggle for him…stats, economics, etc. It doesn’t compute. My youngest is quite good at comp Sci/programming and has advanced classes in high school due to a magnet program. It became clear in his jr year of hs that e’school wasn’t the right path. His interests are statistics, economics, finance, public policy, and he becomes animated with waving arms full of excitement whenever he discusses this. It took over six months to convince DH of this. Through his college search, and looking into career paths that combined his interests, he found that actuarial science hit everything. This isn’t something you study (usually economics, statistics, finance) but a career, very in demand, and very well paid. Who knows what he’ll end up doing (nothing would surprise me with this one), but I refuse to bow at the alter of engineering (no matter how much I respect the field) for a student that clearly has other gifts and interests. It’s a great career path…for the right kid. Other paths are not ‘less then’, ‘second rate’, or what less intelligent or less capable students choose when engineering doesn’t work out. You’ve got to get rid of this thought process so you can help your son transition to something else with his head held high IF that’s what’s eventually decided.</p>

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<p>Before anything he need to HONESTLY evaluate why he’s struggling. </p>

<p>Yes engineering majors are challenging, yes he is surrounded by smart kids, BUT, if he was getting 5’s on his AP’s he is capable of doing B level work.</p>

<p>Some things to look at…
Did he take too much credit for his AP classes? Many of the AP courses don’t really cover everything as fully as the corresponding engineering classes. Can he go back and rescind any AP credits and take the corresponding Ivy course?</p>

<p>How long ago did he take calculus BC? Did he spend Sr year in HS without doing any calculus based math? If so, it is easy for lots of calc to get forgotten.</p>

<p>Is he having adjustment problems with time management and/or social issues (is he making it to class, doing homework, studying, partying too much?)</p>

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<p>Again blueiguana I agree with you. My son that is in engineering school was not the high school superstar, he was “smart enough” but he’s a plugger and always has been - a defensive noseguard or defensive tackle high school football player who never gives up and that’s what it takes to grind through engineering. (I’m not an engineer so to me it is a grind.) My middle child quickly realized he wasn’t an “engineer” but combined his interests into his major and minor. He’s will graduate this year in environmental science with a water resource management concentration and geology minor. He’s interested in the business and legal aspects of water resource management and did his internship with a water conservancy organization and he “lights” up when you talk to him about his future career hopes. Hopefully the OPs son is at a college that has a diversity of majors and minors that in combination will “fill” his interests but in a different avenue than hard core engineering.</p>

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<p>If a student is struggling in college as an engineering major, he most likely will not be able to do the job as an engineer after he graduates, (and hopefully) gets a job. I work as an engineering manager, and see many people who struggle in their day to day job performance, since they lack the fundamental skills required to be an engineer- critical thinking, problem solving. etc. Unfortunately, these people often are rated lowest at the end of the year when performance ratings are done. (Grades don’t stop after graduation.)</p>

<p>There are other careers where a person can focus on STEM that are less academically challenging. Has he considered engineering technology?</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your son.</p>

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<p>It is difficult to make the courses easier (while still including sufficient content), but it is not as difficult to make the courses harder.</p>

<p>I.e. engineering is a major that can range from “fairly hard” to “really hard”, in contrast to some other majors that can range from “really easy” to “really hard”.</p>

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<p>Engineering is tough. Period. It is it’s own beast. </p>

<p>I don’t want to touch the grade inflation at Ivy issues but I can say, at S UC the average GPA of students freshman year is 2.95. This is across all majors. It rises slightly to 3.0 and 3.1 during Soph and Junior years. </p>

<p>The school wide acceptance rate for 2013 was 38%. However the acceptance rate to the ME program was 15%! So to the OP, as others have stated, be cautious when assuming a State U will provide and easy engineering program.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that the first thing you need to do is figure out how hard and fast the 3.5 next semester rule is, and what it means if he doesn’t attain it. Frankly, even if he takes easier classes in a different major, there’s a good chance that he won’t wind up with a 3.5. If he winds up with a 3.0 or a 3.3, does he get kicked out, or does the improvement give him another semester’s grace? If he gets asked to leave, is it a suspension, or at that point will it be a permanent withdrawal?</p>

<p>If there doesn’t seem to be a lot of wiggle room, I would be very wary of entering a situation that would, to my mind, be setting your son up for failure even if he made a phenomenal improvement. The best choice might just be to cut your losses, start at a CC, and apply for a transfer somewhere after getting a few good grades there. </p>

<p>Assuming he does stay at the Ivy, I think you have to be looking at majors in which, to put it bluntly, he will be able to take advantage of elite school grade inflation. That means majors where grading is more subjective - which means probably NOT biology. He doesn’t like humanities, but maybe a social science, subject where even exams might be mainly short answer essay based, would work. Even if he doesn’t like those subjects that much, at this point, we’re not looking at STEM vs. humanities, we’re looking at possibly failing to get a degree at all vs. getting a degree that may not match completely with his interests.</p>

<p>If he did go the CC to state school route, while I agree that engineering probably still wouldn’t be the right choice, since he would be starting off without the major deficit of three sub 2.0 semesters, he might well be able to do fine in something like biology. If he is to have a prayer of staying at the Ivy, however, he pretty much has to be taking a lot of gut courses to radically pull up his GPA. At this point, being a B or even B + bio major isn’t going to cut it. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>One thing that some don’t understand about eng’g is that not every smart person has “an engineering mind”. My older son realized that right away when he started as an eng’g major. He quickly changed to math because that was his true love. My younger son has “an eng’g mind” and loved all of it.</p>