<p>Humor me on this tangent please?</p>
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<p>[CC</a>, SEAS admit rate up to 7.4 percent | Columbia Daily Spectator](<a href=“http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2012/03/29/cc-seas-admit-rate-74-percent]CC”>http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2012/03/29/cc-seas-admit-rate-74-percent)</p>
<p>Also…if I were me, I’d consider the finances of this issue. If this kid is receiving ANY federally funded need based aid, including Direct Loans, he could very well have an issue as it sounds like he is NOT meeting Satisfactory Academic Progress.</p>
<p>If the family is paying themselves, they have already spent about $90,000 for three less than lackluster semesters with barely any credits to show for,the time spent at this school.</p>
<p>You know…sometimes the school isn’t the right place either (although our Ivy friends and family say that it is VERY hard to flunk out IF one takes full advantage of the advising and support services offered). </p>
<p>Three semesters of mostly failing grades? I would say it is time to rethink the college as well as the major.</p>
<p>True, unless you have a close friend or relative who is or has gone through a good engineering program it’s difficult to understand. It’s a shame that too many kids and parents go in not understanding what it’s really all about. In my opinion it is a career technical degree much like nursing or pharmacy.</p>
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<p>One possible dimension is the OP’s child failed to take full advantage of such resources because in such elite academic institutions, there is a tendency among some entering students to take academic setbacks…especially failures hard because they were all academic superstars in HS and feel pressure of higher expectations heaped upon them by virtue of attending such institutions. </p>
<p>Add to that a culture of one-upsmanship within STEM fields like engineering/CS* and at some of the Ivy colleges general campus culture and we may have another factor in why some students like OP’s child may have been reluctant to take full advantage of such resources until it was too late. </p>
<p>Ironically, in trying to avoid telegraphing his academic weakness and reinforcing possible negative self-perceptions about his being admitted from the bottom 10% of the admitted students, his failure to take full advantage of college resources made the possible fears of admitting impending failure a reality.</p>
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<li>I’ve witnessed and experienced the “Nerdier than thou” one-upsmanship games in both my STEM-centered magnet HS and in workplaces with a high concentration of engineering/CS graduates.</li>
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<p>Since according to the OP, the kid likes STEM and has hands-on skills that are by-and-large not graded, it may be worthwhile to go to an easier school and major in STEM rather than switch to major with grade inflation. A friend of a friend worked at a major engineering firm and had a lot of patents, and he only went to a directional state university (not flagship), a university which had minimal academic requirements to get in. Maybe this guy went to that university because of financial aid, but maybe it was because he was better with his hands than with theory.</p>
<p>Ultimately, you want to have a degree in the area that you want to work in. </p>
<p>I agree with others that it is unlikely that any STEM major will allow the rapid increase in GPA needed to stay at the university. The first year is usually just basic math and science classes, so poor performance across the board is likely an indicator that they will have trouble in math and science majors. By the way, this first year is usually easier for engineering majors than the real engineering classes.</p>
<p>If he isn’t set on STEM, it’s true there are a lot of jobs available for humanities majors from an ivy. Like, for instance, any job in a business firm, or just about anything except engineering or science.</p>
<p>I just have to ask…why does this student need to stay at this Ivy?</p>
<p>Read the first line of the thread.
Nuff said.</p>
<p>“He took 8 AP classes, got a 5 on his Calc BC test, etc. He got As and Bs in his AP courses. But his class rank, test scores, put him on the low end of accepted students.”</p>
<p>The student is smart and worked hard in high school.</p>
<p>“He was going to office hours and going to classes and using the student center that has free tutoring, etc.”</p>
<p>The student appeared to have put good effort into his studies at college.</p>
<p>“He knows how to apply a lot of the engineering and math principles but seems to have trouble doing it on a test. At his school they don’t test you on what was taught but how to apply what you have learned.”</p>
<p>Notice the conflict in this statement. I believe that the student lacks the intellectual skill to apply what he has learned in an engineering setting. This says nothing about his intelligence or work ethic it simply indicates he lacks a specific skill set which is critical for engineering.</p>
<p>I know several people who have had similar difficulties and have had to drop out of engineering programs only to go on and graduates in other fields and ultimately have become very successful. I would stay at the Ivy League school if possible for two reasons- the tutoring service would be better than at another school and the range in options of what he could study would be greater.</p>
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<p>The University’s current policy is to report what looks good to the naked eye, and make all creative and whimsical corrections that will possibly remain unchallenged. And that includes obfuscation of distinct classes of applicants, wildly exaggerated assumptions of class ranks, and whatever crutches might work.</p>
<p>When it comes to releasing data, Columbia remains in that small pool of blatantly dishonest marketers they share with Chicago, Washu, and a few notable others. </p>
<p>For instance, does anyone know how many early acceptances were offered at Chicago and Columbia in December? It is all in a need to know basis as they massage the numbers … as usual.</p>
<p>The OP says the school tests on application of skills, not “what was taught”. This will be the case anywhere, and it also the case in the work world. One is expected to be able to APPLY learned skills, not just parrot back what was taught in a class.</p>
<p>Here is my suggestion, FWIW. The student should not return to this Ivy. He should request a leave (which may actually not be granted given that he has been in this boat all three terms). He should take courses at a community college. He needs to figure out how to PASS college courses. He needs to figure out what went wrong, and figure out what HE needs to do to correct that.</p>
<p>He needs to speak to the advisors at the CC. He should find out which four year schools have articulation agreements with the CC for completing his bachelors degree. Usually CC articulation agreements mean that IF a student satisfactorily completes the CC course of study, he WILL be accepted to schools having articulation agreements with the CC. It is likely that this will be public universities, but some CCs do have articulation agreements with local private schools (but I’ve not heard of articulation agreements with Ivies).</p>
<p>This student, under the above scenario, could complete his bachelors degree…but not at an Ivy. So what? I’m not sure that should be his acid test for success. </p>
<p>There is nothing shameful about leaving an Ivy. There is nothing shameful about completing a degree at a school other than an Ivy. There is nothing shameful about leaving engineering as a major (although given the right foundation, this could be a possible major).</p>
<p>But most of all…this student needs to figure out what went wrong. Something did…and for three terms. Until he figures this out, he could be in a repeat situation regardless of where he attends college.</p>
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<p>Will we ever see the day when people understand that the AP are glorified high school programs that do not directly relate to college work. Most courses are a mile wide and an inch deep that hardly reward intellectual vitality. Getting high scores is mostly dependent on the ability to obtain previous exams via the teachers who teach to the test or benevolent pirates.</p>
<p>What are his math/science grades like? Freshman year is largely prerequisites such as Calculus, Physics, Chemistry with general engineering courses and maybe a humanities course thrown in… If his grades in math and science are also low, then I don’t think switching majors to math/biology/biostatistics will magically cause his GPA to rise from 1.5/1.75 to 3.5.</p>
<p>I would suggest a leave of absence. Think long and hard why the student is struggling. Poor study habits? Just not comfortable taking exams? Impersonal learning environment? Need more contact with professors? Then see how this Ivy fits or doesn’t fit the student’s needs. Frankly, I don’t see a good fit. It sounds like the OP’s son would be better off at a smaller school that has written evaluations or is project-oriented. I agree with thumper - unless the OP and son figure out the issues, the child is just going to repeat the same situation at another school or studying another discipline.</p>
<p>People leave Ivies all the time and yes, some are asked to leave due to their grades. It’s okay. More often than not, they find a school better suited to their needs and earn their college degree.</p>
<p>Good points about the APs, and previously a question regarding the possibility that perhaps a rocky start, and inability to catch up, was due to a less then solid foundation based on AP credit. Taking AP credit for Chem if you had a B+/4 if you’re a mech’e and will never build on this may not hurt you. Taking credit for Physics even if you had a strong A/5 can sink you. My son waived Physics credit. Good thing, by midterms they had blown past everything touched on in AP and were on to new material. He’d have been toast moving ahead to Physics 2. Foundational courses in STEM are imperative.</p>
<p>I also agree 100% that finding out what went wrong, the ‘why’, is the only way to move forward with any course of study, at any school. You fix something by diagnosing the problem. You’ll never fix something by throwing money at it.</p>
<p>If your your son decides to return to his Ivy, he will need to know what the process is at his school. Most suspensions are for at least one academic year. Some schools will allow you to take courses while on dismissal, some will only allow you to take courses at another 4 year school, some will not allow you to take courses at all. Even if it is not on the the transcript that the student was on academic probation or was academically dismissed, your son will still have to answer the question on the admissions application for any other college he is applying to (this includes grad school).</p>
<p>for example at Penn:
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<p>At Cornell</p>
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<p>At Columbia</p>
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<p>at Dartmouth:</p>
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<p>at Harvard</p>
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<p>Besides the “teaching to the test” factor, most of the AP exams are just plain easy. Of the math/science ones, I’d say only getting a 5 on the AP chem actually demonstrates a mastery of the subject commensurate with doing well in a college classes. </p>
<p>People who get A’s in the intro math and science classes in college (i.e., classes for science majors like physics with calculus I and II, chemistry, bio, etc.) typically have high A’s in high school classes, not just A’s and B’s, and pretty easily got a 5 on the respective AP exams and blew the SATIIs out of the water (if they took AP). Yes, it’s possible if you slacked off to do well in the college class since taking physics doesn’t require that you have even seen it before, but hopefully you aced the prerequisites. Another factor is that a lot of people taking college intro classes in competitive colleges aced that class as a high school student and may be taking it for an easy “A”; this contributes to the curve being difficult to surmount.</p>
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<p>While perhaps true, that is not the point, which is readiness for a highly competitive major (Eng) at a highly competitive college.</p>
<p>Even if Calc BC is the most generous of the APs (~50% score a 5?), that score still reflects some minimum level of ability, of which many (most?) entering an Ivy or top LAC will possess. More importantly, to me the lack of such a score raises a question of the readiness to compete in a dog-eat-dog world of STEM curves.</p>
<p>(yes, some tippy top prep schools offer extremely rigorous honors high school courses, which may surpass AP, but what many on cc ‘claim’ to a be top prep school is not.)</p>
<p>BB … This is what I quoted:</p>
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<p>Not trying to generalize, but this case seems to be a poster child for debunking the value of AP over test scores, class rank, and GPA. From my vantage point, I always considered the AP to be a giant boondoggle that only lived because of its devious ability to create a school within a school and offer a de facto but less visible racial and economic segregation. just as it’s ■■■■■■■ IB distant cousin, it only pretends to be hard and relies on busywork. </p>
<p>Anyhow, here you got a student with a BC AP score of five and 8 APs who will get dismissed after a few months. Seems like those SAT and GPA are indeed the best predictors of success when … used properly in their natural combination. The AP … not so much. Just as the most selective high schools in the country have learned … when freed from pleasing the crowd of public school parents and teachers who love the quasi private school emulations and imitations.</p>
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Not unless you are only considering highly selective colleges where the vast majority of the student body fits that description. For example, the study at <a href=“http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/smg/ficss/research/articles/Science_educator_advanced.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/smg/ficss/research/articles/Science_educator_advanced.pdf</a> found that among students who received A’s in college science courses, most did not take the corresponding AP class, and of those that did take AP science, the most common AP score was a 3. However, like many other studies, they did find that AP exam score had a notable correlation with college grade, such than a student who scored a 5 on the AP exam was far more likely to get an A than a student who scored a 1 on the AP exam, although some in both groups received A’s. The UC study at <a href=“http://cshe.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/publications/docs/ROP.Geiser.4.04.pdf[/url]”>http://cshe.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/shared/publications/docs/ROP.Geiser.4.04.pdf</a> came to a similar conclusion and found the following regression coefficients for predicting 2nd year GPA among STEM math and physical science majors at colleges in the University of California system:</p>
<p>HS GPA – 0.29
AP Exam Scores – 0.22
SAT II Scores – 0.08
SAT I Scores – 0.03</p>
<p>AP exams score was the most important test score by far, however, using GPA, test scores, income and education level, and various other factors, Geiger was only able to explain 26% of the variance in college GPA for math/science majors and 19% of the variance for the overall student body. The vast majority of the variance in college grades could not be predicted by high school stats, leading to most of the A students having characteristics typical of the student body, as discussed in the preceding Harvard study (the most common AP score within the student bodies that took the exam was 3, which was also the most common score among students in those student bodies who received an A).</p>
<p>Intuitively this makes sense to me. College is drastically different from high school for many reasons. For example, one of the most common reasons for poor grades in colleges relates to the change in environment. Maybe the student will choose partying and drinking over studying when he has the opportunity. Maybe he doesn’t do as well without parental pressure. Maybe the transition to college and starting without friends is mentally stressful. There are countless environmental explanations that will not be predicted by HS scores. (I am not saying the OP’s child has any of these issues.)</p>
<p>sorry, xiggi, we’ll have to agree to partially disagree. </p>
<p>As the UC data has demonstrated above (Data posted it before I could), AP scores by themselves are the best predictor of Frosh success. While I do concur that rank is a key component, it has to be used with test scores. There are hundreds (thousands?) of tiny high schools with graduating classes of <30. A Val/Sal from such a class may not possess the same competitive readiness as a Val/Sal of a class of 550.</p>
<p>In the OP’s case, since we know nothing of the HS, class rank by itself is not a valid metric (at least to me). And, I have trouble understanding how someone who scored a 5 on BC, could not easily clear 750 on Math 2. Similarly, such a student should be able to clear 700 on SAT-M, with a little review. So, I question the overall claim that all test scores were in the bottom decile. (It doesn’t pass the smell test unless the hook was so big that at the kid didn’t try. But even so, that is not a readiness issue, but study issue.)</p>
<p>The “elephant in the” room". Parent reported that both GPA and test scores put this student in the bottom decile of accepted students. One has to wonder exactly what was on his application that made the school accept him. Did he have some hook? Was he an athlete? What made this school accept this otherwise less qualified student!</p>
<p>I asked previously about finances. This is a REAL concern if this student is receiving need based aid. Any federally funded aid will NOT be available unless,this student meets satisfactory academic progress. Has he done so? Is this a concern? And the school itself is not likely going to,want to continue to provide aid to,a student who has had three terms of 1.5 GPA. </p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I believe there is a missing piece or two to this story. First, this student has been in this boat for THREE terms, not one. The wake up call should have happened after the FIRST term. </p>
<p>I honestly feel both the school and the major are NOT the right ones right now. </p>
<p>But he CAN succeed and get a college degree. He needs to figure out what went wrong, nd be prepared to address that. Going to school at a community college and doing well could very well be the stepping stone this student needs to both build confidence, and succeed.</p>
<p>He is NOT the first…nor will he be the last…to NOT be successful at his first college.</p>
<p>Time to look forward.</p>