<p>too late to edit post 99, when I meant to say that AP scores were the best predictor after GPA…but note, xiggi, SAT I is the least predictive (by itself).</p>
<p>Just to clarify, son did fine his first semester, not honor roll but typical of first year engineers and not in any academic dishonor.<br>
He is not an athlete. </p>
<p>The school assured us that he would not have been accepted if they did nit think he could succeed there. This was his reach school when he applied. </p>
<p>I appreciate all of the input. My son is trying to learn from this as are we. He has a really good work ethic so I think some time away will help him to reflect and learn and plot out a path forward. Often, we learn the most from failures. We will see what his options are tomorrow.</p>
<p>OP - My DS at Georgia tech which is one of our state flagships. I wouldn’t say it would be any easier at GT than where your DS is attending. </p>
<p>You said that he did fine first semester. I’m wondering as another poster also stated: A lot of first and second year engineering requirements are usually core classes like Calc II, III, Diff Eq, Physics I &II, Chem, Computer science ect… How many actual “engineering” classes has your DS had? It may be too soon to know whether engineering is right for him or not. Can he retake any of his classes he didn’t do well in and
replace the grade? or does he have any general ed classes left that he could get and easy A in to raise his GPA? Is he in study groups with other kids? DS didn’t in high school but says that’s the only way to get through the weed out classes in college…</p>
<p>Lots of great ideas have been suggested. You likely understand that he’s probably hurting right now, so he’ll likely need emotional support no matter which route he takes. The academic record will stand unless he somehow obtains late withdrawals from the completed classes due to extenuating circumstances (health problem, death or crisis in family, etc.). Usually a college would dismiss him for low GPA and ask he attend another college (commonly students choose community colleges) for two semesters and post only top grades (think all As) before the student can seek to re-enroll at the desired school. Transfer schools would also be looking for some proof of recent academic success. It must be hard to consider giving up on an Ivy, but there is research showing students are much more happy and successful when they’re at a well-matched (not super-reach) school. With such a supportive parent, I’m sure he’ll find his way and thrive.</p>
<p>
Do you have a reference to the study? In the interview at <a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/harvarddean-part2/[/url]”>http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/harvarddean-part2/</a> , the dean of admissions at Harvard was asked about the ability of standardized tests to predict success at Harvard. He’s reply was quite different, stating that their internal studies found,</p>
<p>“the best predictors at Harvard are Advanced Placement tests and International Baccalaureate Exams”</p>
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</p>
<p>BC is also one of those tests where the students are self-selected to be top students in the subject. So no surprise that the BC test takers generally do better than the AB test takers, who are more likely to be “good but not great” in math.</p>
<p>Many students go directly from a 5 on the BC test to more advanced college math courses and do fine. However, it is best for any student considering using AP credit to move on to a more advanced course in the subject to review the college’s final exams for the course that is allowed to be skipped. That would be a more reliable way of determining proper placement than merely the AP score.</p>
<p>*The school assured us that he would not have been accepted if they did nit think he could succeed there. This was his reach school when he applied. *</p>
<p>This seems meaningless. What else would they say? They’re not going to say, “Well, we suspected that he might fail but we gave him a seat anyway.”</p>
<p>They’re not going to suggest that they set him up for failure by accepting a student likely to fail. All the students that they accepted that are in the bottom 10% were expected to succeed. They certainly wouldn’t want 10% of a class to flunk out.</p>
<p>My son is trying to learn from this as are we. He has a really good work ethic so I think some time away will help him to reflect and learn and plot out a path forward. Often, we learn the most from failures. We will see what his options are tomorrow.</p>
<p>very true.</p>
<p>You say that his first semester was fine…sounds like B’s maybe some Cs. It’s more likely that the first semester be the lousy one, so this is odd. </p>
<p>So it sounds like this first semester was a 2.X GPA…and then the second and third semesters were low 1.X. Were those classes much harder? Did he have the right prereqs?</p>
<p>Did he meet a love interest his second semester?</p>
<p>Based on DATA10 posts and an AP calculus score of 5 it is not surprising that the op son passed his first semester of calculus. His academic performance appears to have nosedived when he started to take his first engineering courses, however he was able to make an A in a non-stem course. This is very common in engineering programs. Very often the first real engineering courses start sophomore year and they weed out non-engineering types.</p>
<p>I wonder if a more project-based school like Olin would have been better. Not a useful question for this family, at this point, but something to think about for others. It would seem that test and exam-taking issue were at the core of the OP’s son’s problems. Learning style seems to become even more important as students move up the academic chain.</p>
<p>Compmom- we don’t know what was the core of the OP’s son’s problems. We don’t know the classes he took; we don’t know if he counted on his HS study habits to make him successful in a more challenging environment; we don’t know how he reacted to what was probably a very tough message by mid-terms during each of the three semesters. I’ve seen kids throw in the towel after midterms- we really don’t know what happened here. But a bit of tunnel vision seems to be at play. How Olin would have fixed this (if the kid is unsuited to an engineering major, going to a college which ONLY offers engineering seems to be a poor fix IMHO) is unclear.</p>
<p>The parent mentioned that the son did well with projects versus tests. Yes, we don’t know what the source of that problem was, but since I have a kid with similar aptitude for projects, I thought I would just throw that in. As I said, too late for this young man but for others interested in engineering, I have read that some schools are more project-based than others (I believe UMass Lowell might be where we heard this).</p>
<p>Some schools are indeed more project based than others. But no ABET accredited engineering program will substitute projects for the core mathematical and scientific knowledge required to advance into junior and senior level classes, workshops and seminars.</p>
<p>I defer to those who know more about engineering training, of course, but even I know that foundational courses are necessary. Still, I was trying to make a helpful comment for other readers whose kids, or who themselves, might have this type of learning style.</p>
<p>Olin, for one, writes about their pioneering, project-based curriculm and I assume that means something. I am sure other schools are going in this direction too.</p>
<p>"At Olin College of Engineering, a fundamental part of our philosophy is that learning occurs through immersion in real-world applications. Our students engage in a hands-on approach from day one; the solutions they devise in the classroom must work for open-ended problems, not just those from a text book.</p>
<p>This approach results in more than just engineering students on the verge of graduating; it creates innovators, inventors, entrepreneurs and leaders who apply the skills theyve learned over their first three years at Olin to a corporate consulting project, called the Senior Capstone Program in Engineering (SCOPE). "</p>
<p>@compmom </p>
<p>Without any specific knowledge of the Olin curriculum, I will go a bit out on a limb and suggest that is little more than marketing. All engineering schools that I am familiar with do a lot of project based, team based learning. That is, after all, the essence of engineering.</p>
<p>Intro classes like Calc, Mechanics, etc, will tend to be primarily test based but once you to upper level classes there is a shift from 90+% test based to 50%+ project based evaluations in most places (including the ivys)</p>
<p>Nobody is advancing to a senior capstone project without having passed chem, physics, etc. The OP’s son needs to nail the basics before worrying about becoming an innovator and an entrepreneur (or as I suggested earlier… become an innovator and entrepreneur WITHOUT an engineering degree).</p>
<p>Would you drive on a bridge created by an engineer who hadn’t passed Freshman calculus? Or get on an airplane designed by a team of people who got D’s in material science?</p>
<p>Didn’t think so.</p>
<p>There are some easier engineering schools that are more project based, WPI, RIT, perhaps a few more. None of that is really relevant to the OP’s son though. </p>
<p>I think that with an academic dismissal on the transcript, it’s going to be really hard to transfer to another 4 year college. Start with a quality community college. Some states have better CCs than others. Go out of state to get the quality. </p>
<p>What I would recommend, and I did in an earlier post, is to stick with engineering and just plan on having it take longer. My relative at Rutgers took 6 years including summers. </p>
<p>Penn State even recommends taking a 13 credit load for 5 years rather than a 17 credit load for 4 years. This stuff can be really hard and time consuming. Taking a lighter load is often beneficial. </p>
<p>Additionally, I’d recommend getting a tutor to help him not get stuck. </p>
<p>Often in studying engineering, it takes a while to develop the necessary study skills and discipline to work the problems. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, people care what you can do, not how long you took in learning how to do it.</p>
<p>CRD,</p>
<p>I don’t know which Ivy the OP’s S attends but at least some Ivies don’t allow you to do this. They require you to complete a certain # of courses at each point along the way. If your schedule isn’t set up to do this, your advisor can’t “sign off” on it. You simply aren’t allowed to be enrolled as an UG and take 8 years to get your degree. You CAN take a leave of absence and come back to finish later, but taking a few classes each semester isn’t allowed.</p>
<p>Olin is HIGHLY competitive for admissions. Just saying!</p>
<p>With regard to “taking longer”…if this student is receiving financial aid, that might not continue if he “takes longer”. Even the Pell Grant is now for limited duration. There is a aggregate limit on the Direct Loans…if he takes TOO long, he could lose those too, if he has them.</p>
<p>The financial aspects of this situation cannot be overlooked, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I very much agree that this student can (and likely will) get his degree. It might even be in engineering. But it does not sound like it will happen at this college, right now. </p>
<p>He needs to build confidence in his ability to take and pass challenging courses. He might have to rethink his career path. There is nothing wrong with doing these things.</p>
<p>ClassicRockerDad, my son’s engineering school also recommends a 4.5 or 5 year course but it’s a big public uni not a private school. Private school business models probably aren’t set up to have kids extend much past four years in undergrad is my guess. My son is planning on the 4.5 (so far). They sent 3 different course flowcharts for 4, 4.5 and 5 years. My son tested into a calc class based on his high school transcript and test scores that he wasn’t comfortable after only three days in class and dropped back to the typical first calc class this fall after a very quick conversation with his prof and full blessings of the engineering adviser. Just because the kids transcripts has numbers and words on it doesn’t mean they are the “same” as everyone sitting in that classroom on day 1. I’d rather he take one summer semester or two and work at the speed and level he’s comfortably stressed at than be over his head and drowning. Stress in and of itself is not bad, but if someone is drowning they need a lifeline.</p>
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<p>However, students and parents making financial plans for college need to consider the possibility of extra time in school* and its effect on cost and financial aid.</p>
<p>*Meaning tuition paying semesters, not co-op jobs and the like that can extend calendar time to graduation but do not involve extra school costs.</p>