Academic Workload

Parent Cafe
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<p>I am curious to know something.</p>

<p>My attends an Italian school here in NY. It is chartered by the Regents of the University of the State of New York as a private, independent, co-educational American school The school is accredited by the New York State Association of Independent Schools (NYSAIS). </p>

<p>The curriculum is taught in both Italian and English and follows the traditional Italian curriculum plus additional courses in advanced English and American History. This curriculum is generally taught in five years in Italy, however, it is taught in four years which make it especially demanding and unique.</p>

<p>The upper division of the school called Liceo offers a singular challenging curriculum without tracks or tiers. All students must complete the same rigorous sequence of courses and all the courses are taught at an advanced level.</p>

<p>The school does not offer elective courses, and instruction is in Italian and English with a greater proportion of academic subjects taught in Italian as the student progresses through the Liceo. This means that the majority of the subject areas are taught in Italian by the 12th grade. No AP classes are offered.</p>

<p>In the four years the students complete:</p>

<p>4 years of Italian Lang & Lit
4 years of Latin lang and lit
4 years of English lang and lit
1 year of Geography
4 years of American history
4 years of European history
3 years of Philosophy
3 years of Law and Economics
4 years of Mathematics
3 years of Physics
4 years of Science
4 years of technical drawing and history of art
4 year of physical education</p>

<p>In order to graduate, the students must earn at a minimum of six in all of the courses and pass a six-hour math test, a six-hour written exam in Italian, a three-hour multidisciplinary test and an oral presentation of their thesis in Italian. Upon successful completion they are awarded a diploma which gives them access to attend any college or university in the European Union.</p>

<p>I am not crying sour grapes but I believe the entire GPA SAT perspective needs to be evaluated.</p>

<p>It is beyond me how my kid, if he decides to, can attend any school in the European Union based upon the successful passing of the State Exam but can get rejected based upon an SAT score GPA.</p>

<p>I am curious to know if anyone else's child has followed a similar academic workload and if so, would you share with me so that I can have an idea what types of academics schools of engineering are looking for.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>Many schools have holistic admissions and don’t rely solely on GPA & test scores.
Additionally, many students do better on the ACT than the SAT.</p>

<p>I believe the SAT just tests lower level algebra & geometry, so if it has been a while since your son has taken them, that might explain low math scores.</p>

<p>Or has your son taken the SAT?
Are you worrying in advance?
Don’t worry until you know if you have something to worry about!
;)</p>

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<p>Top schools are very “holistic” in their admissions. Don’t worry about it. Your son should apply to schools he thinks he would like to attend, and see what happens. And he will never lose the excellent education he has received so far.</p>

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<p>Well if he’s so well prepared for European universities maybe that’s where he should go. Okay, sorry to be snarky. European colllege are not the same as US ones, so it’s not unreasonable that they are looking for different things. Generally you apply by major there, engineering is the exception to that rule here, and even with engineering you don’t usually specialize the first year.</p>

<p>It looks like your kid takes 11 courses every year. It’s hard to imagine that those courses go into as great a depth as a typical US course. For example, I’d guess that the “4 years of American History” covers in 4 years the same material that my kids got in one year of AP history. In any event he looks like he got a good education and many colleges in this country will consider it a plus that he went to an atypical school, whatever his scores and GPA are.</p>

<p>Engineering schools will be typically looking for evidence that your child is good at math and science, especially the physical sciences. So they’ll be looking for a curriculum that covers first year Calculus, at least a Regent’s level physics and chemistry course. Depending on how select the school is they may prefer the curriculum be at closer to an AP level. The AP course designation is not important. I presume students at your school have attended American colleges before and the GCs there will be able to advise you.</p>

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<p>I’m sure that with his wonderful education, your son will find the SAT or the ACT to be no big deal. It will take him one Saturday morning to complete. It’s just another hoop to jump through. I’m not sure I see a problem here.</p>

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<p>It’s ironic you say that as most folks I’ve known who studied and/or taught in European and American educational systems would find most American high school courses tend to be the ones lacking depth. </p>

<p>Granted, I’m more familiar with the British and German based systems where students take less courses, but are expected to start specializing while still in high school and the universities expect much more specialization in a given field than their American counterparts. </p>

<p>It’s a reason why some academics and knowledgeable employers have likened some European Bachelor degrees as being more like something between the American Bachelors and a stand-alone Masters degrees. </p>

<p>Gen Eds and distribution requirements taking place in the first two years of most US undergrad programs are regarded as something that should have been handled at the academic high school or even middle school levels.</p>

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<p>So your beef is that the US uses a different arbitrary examination than does the EU?</p>

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<p>cobrat, I think the average American education is less than the average European one for those heading to universities there. But I’m not convinced that kids taking a full plate of APs are really that far behind. </p>

<p>As for OP’s complaint that the student will get rejected “based on an SAT score GPA” (what ever that is), in fact, with holistic admissions you’ll never know what the reason for any particular rejection was. Heck, I have a kid who was accepted at Harvard and waitlisted at Harvey Mudd, and rejected at MIT. I don’t think his SATs were the problem.</p>

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<p>Actually, Cobrat, my father hires engineers from all over the world, especially nations in Europe and he says his company will not hire an Engineer from Europe that does not have an European masters degree because it is nearly equivalent to a US bachelors degree. Their department in charge of hiring staff swears up and down that European degrees are not as in depth as American bachelors degrees.
As for focusedmom, what type of school is your child looking for? Have they taken the SAT or ACT and do they have a reported GPA? Colleges will take into consideration the students course rigor and if it can be proven that the course load is truly more rigorous or as rigorous as AP( I’m not doubting you but colleges are skeptical of atypical education) then that will compensate for the lack of APs. American colleges take a holistic approach. They realize that no single factor should determine a child’s future. Just because someone is a bad test taker doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to attend a good school, so colleges look at their course rigor, how they did in those courses and how valuable of a person they will be for their school. Colleges don’t want academic obsessed student who don’t know the basics of social communication or how to properly interact. You can be a genius but if you can’t talk at an interview you won’t get the job.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your reply. </p>

<p>He has taken the SAT and hasn’t performed as well as I would have liked. His scores are good enough for engineering school though. No excuses but his school does not prepare for SAT. The approach is very different.</p>

<p>What I am curious is about though is the fact that a 3.0-4.0 in the American school system varies from state to state and even within regions within a state. A student who earns 4.0 in a school that is underserved is very different from a 4.0 a student earns in an an IB school. </p>

<p>In the Italian high school system a student who attends a “Liceo Scientico” the curriculum doesn’t change throughout the entire country and there is no GPA inflation because GPA doesn’t matter. Everyone takes the same rigorous exam to leave high school.</p>

<p>In fact, if the student’s grades are not up to par, they are not invited to take the exit exam and have to repeat the year.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>

<p>Having been educated in the US up to graduate study level in addition to studying in Italy and England, it appears, at least from my perspective that way too much emphasis is put on GPA and SAT.</p>

<p>My rationale for saying this is that my son has received for acceptances from his safety schools. Two of the schools have offered him generous scholarships while the other two have not offered him a bean. I find it peculiar because the admissions standards for the schools that didn’t offer him merit scholarship are much lower that the admissions standards for the universities that offered him merit-based scholarships.</p>

<p>I am not bragging about my son, however, he is trilingual and has the SAT subject test scores to back it up in addition to the required Subject Tests in Math I, Math II and Physics</p>

<p>Having experienced being educated both in the United States and Europe I question the validity of using GPA scores to determine readiness for college.</p>

<p>Somehow, it appears to me that any child who has a heavier academic workload with a lower GPA is better prepared for college than one who has a 4.0 and less rigorous academic workload. Where is the scholarship in that?</p>

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<p>Thanks compmom.</p>

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<p>Not to worry. I didn’t take your reply to be snarky.</p>

<p>I’ve had the privilege of being educated in both the United States and Europe. I wouldn’t change it for the world. I am American and my husband is European. So we sent our son to a school where he can get the best of both American and European studies.</p>

<p>Many American students, like myself did study abroad and had the opportunity to see things from an international perspective.</p>

<p>mathmom’s quote: “It looks like your kid takes 11 courses every year. It’s hard to imagine that those courses go into as great a depth as a typical US course. For example, I’d guess that the “4 years of American History” covers in 4 years the same material that my kids got in one year of AP history. In any event he looks like he got a good education and many colleges in this country will consider it a plus that he went to an atypical school, whatever his scores and GPA are.”</p>

<p>Mathmom, many share your sentiments.</p>

<p>FYI, here is the curriculum all the students follows:</p>

<p>Ninth Grade</p>

<p>Survey of Italian Language and Literature
Latin Language and Literature
Survey of English Literature
Geography
Ancient European HistorY
American History through 1800
Algebra/Geometry
Science (Biology)
Ancient Art and Perspective Drawing
Physical Education</p>

<p>Tenth Grade</p>

<p>Medieval Italian language and Literature
Latin Language and Literature
Medievel English Literature
Philosphy: Ancient and Medieval
Medieval European History
American History through the 1860
Introduction to Physics
Trigonometry/Pre-calculus
Science (Biology)
Introduction to Economics and Civics
Medieval Art and Architectural Drawing
Physical Education</p>

<p>Grade 11</p>

<p>Renaissance Italian Language and Literature
Latin Language and Literature
Renaissance English Literature
Philosophy: Medieval through Enlightenment
Renaissance/Early Modern European History
American History through 1900
Physics: Laws of Gravity, Motion and Energy
Trigonometry/Euclidean Geometry
Science (Chemistry)
Consumer Economics: Human Rights
Renaissance Arrt and Architectural Drawing
Physical Education</p>

<p>Grade 12</p>

<p>Italian Language and Literature: Romanticism through post-Modernism
Latin Language and Literature
English Language and Literature: Romanticism through post-modernism
Philosphy: 19th and 20th century
Contemporary European History
Contemporary American History
Physics: Elecrostatics, Magnetism, and Electromagnetism
Analytical Calculus
Science (Earth Science/Astronomy)
Global Economic and Political Systems
19th and 20th Century Art and Architectural Drawing
Physical Education</p>

<p>I’d be curious to know your child/children’s high school academic workload so that I can have a comparison.</p>

<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>

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<p>NJSue,</p>

<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>

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<p>Cobrat,</p>

<p>I agree with you. I was looking at Columbia University’s Core Curriculum and many of the authors that the students read and study my son has already studied. I am sure at Columbia University they will study it at an indepth level, however, the fact remains that he studied it while in high school.</p>

<p>Your point is one that I was attempting to raise. If a student, no matter where they have been educated has studied material that is considered college level, how can one’s GPA be a fair measure of college readiness or scholarship?</p>

<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>

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<p>That’s true, and admissions committees of US universities know that. They look at high school program rigor and the profile of the student body when evaluating the meaning of GPA. So that’s not particularly a problem. My D also went to a regional magnet school with a specialized curriculum. Her HS GPA, while fine, was not as high as it probably would have been if she had gone to our local high school. It did not appear to affect her admissions to good colleges. </p>

<p>It also sounds as if your son has already been accepted to some US programs that will meet his needs, so again, I am not really sure what you are concerned about. If he doesn’t like his options, he can take a gap year and reapply. He can also raise his SAT I scores to get more merit money by prepping for the SAT, which is very responsive to such prepping, esp. in the math and writing sections. Many students from competitive, high ranking high schools routinely prep for the SAT. They don’t expect not to have to do so.</p>

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<p>No. My beef is that the perspective of admission committee’s should be a bit more broader.</p>

<p>I have no beef with the American educational system. I earned three degrees at American Universities.</p>

<p>I understand the importance of GPA and SAT as well as extracurricular activities, however, they are not the only measure of scholarship.</p>

<p>Some students truly love scholarly activities and study solely because they enjoy the subject and not because they want a specific GPA.</p>

<p>From my perspective, the Italian educational system removes that barrier. Your GPA or a standardized test or extracurricular activities play a part in whether attend university.</p>

<p>Passing a six hour math test, that is not multiple choice, a six-hour written exam in Italian, a three hour multidisciplinary test and an oral presentation of a thesis is what each and every Italian student who attends a Liceo Scientifico have to pass in order to attend university.</p>

<p>If a student passes such a rigorous exam with a score of 75% does it mean that student is 2.5 GPA student?</p>

<p>I merely believe that admissions committees should consider expanding their perspective of rigor of curriculum when it comes to students who pursue studies different from what they are accustomed to.</p>

<p>Thanks for your post.</p>

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<p>Hello KS1996KS,</p>

<p>He has taken the SAT. He wants to study engineering and has applied to RIT, RPI, WPI, NYU Poly and Georgia Tech. He’s been accepted to all his safety schools two gave him merit-based scholarships. The other two did not. I found this odd because the college admission prerequisites were lower at the two he was accepted at.</p>

<p>From my perspective, it appears that the universities that did not offer him merit-based scholarships didn’t recognize the totality of his academic workload.</p>

<p>I’ve spoken with those universities and they both have say they would follow up with me.</p>

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<p>NJSue, thank you for your suggestions.</p>

<p>That is one thing his school is lacking is SAT prep.</p>

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<p>But my point is, admissions committees in the US do this already. Why do you think they do not? The US is a huge and varied country and there are many educational programs: AP, IB, magnet, prep, boarding, honors courses, homeschooling. There is probably more variety of high school experience in the US than in many European countries where things are more regulated and centralized.</p>

<p>What your son has done sounds a lot like the IB program. Why do you think admissions committees do not recognize this? They do.</p>

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Most kids prep outside of school for the SAT. They take Kaplan courses, get a tutor, or self-study. This is not the school’s problem.</p>

<p>If you are going for merit money, you should know that SAT matters a lot. If merit money is of great importance, prepping for the SAT can pay big dividends.</p>