Academic Workload

Parent Cafe
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<p>I would suggest to the OP that the student try the ACT. That is a standardized tests that relies more heavily on learned information…math through Trig, although there are only a couple Trig problems, reading comprehension and grammar/punctuation. The science is primarly understanding graphs, charts, data interpretation. Theoretically if the student went to a high school that covers all the foundational pre-college needs the student should do just fine on the ACT. And while some students do very similarly on both tests (mine did) some students seem to fair better with one or the other. If the SAT scores were not what was expected…try the ACT. </p>

<p>As far as GPA, most colleges will interpret the GPA relative to the particular high school and this is why each college asks for a high school profile. This helps understand the differences between a 3.5 or a 3.8 from high school to high school.</p>

<p>My kids attended a trimester high school so a total of 5 classes per trimester, but some classes are one tri, some two and some three so it depends on the student how many “total” classes they take, mine tended toward 9-11 different classes total per year. The schedule you posted if you strip away most of the history courses looks very similar to what my boys studied. Two of the three studied Latin and another language, the third boy stuck with one Language through AP. One boy did “light match” and another took more math classes. The most unusual thing I see compared to my kids’ school in the posted scheduled is the huge amount of available history classes…</p>

<p>As far as high school GPA compared to college GPA I think there would be some comparison from high school performance to college performance. A successful student will be either slightly below or slightly above their high school GPA depending on the rigor would be my guess.</p>

<p>Engineering acceptances are generally tilted toward the math and science curriculum the student took in high school and the standardized test scores in math. I have an LD son with low reading standardized tests and it did not seem to impact his engineering school acceptances since his math scores were in the acceptable range.</p>

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<p>The reason for the emphasis on GPA is that colleges think that the GPA (within the context of the school, so including class rank/decile/whatever school provides) indicates how hard a student will work to meet expectations. At the high school my daughter attended, it’s a rare student who makes it through with straight As, and those rare students didn’t take the hardest classes available. So, the lack of a 4.0 doesn’t seem to hurt.</p>

<p>Note that colleges in the US are limited enrollment. There’s no way that you’d ever get all the US colleges to agree to take every student who did “X”, no matter how amazing “X” is. That’s part of the US undergraduate experience – schools are different and the community of students is an important part of the education (that not every student takes advantage of).</p>

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<p>I actually think engineering school are some of the more predictable in terms of acceptances and rejections.</p>

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<p>Thanks again NJSue for your posts.</p>

<p>I am American born and raised. Attended university up to graduate level here and also studied in England and Italy. Currently, pursuing my second masters at Columbia University as an adult. I mention this as I believe I am giving the impression that I am not American and that I don’t have a clue about the American educational system. I have insight in both the American and European standard and am simply expressing my perspective.</p>

<p>My son has taken SAT prep courses through Kaplan. I am just giving my perspective based upon my experience. That type of thing just doesn’t happen in Europe. The fact that one has earned a diploma indicates that they are ready to attend university. The difference with the American diploma is that it doesn’t necessarily translate into a student’s academic preparedness for university.</p>

<p>The universities that my son has applied are truly not familiar with the Italian State exam. In fact, I have tried to find a thread on college confidential regarding the Italian State exam also known as La Maturita’ and I can’t find anything. I sure wish I could find something.</p>

<p>My son’s SAT scores are very good, not excellent. Good enough to get into engineering school. He’s taken four subject tests and has done very well well with them. His ECs are normal and he plays flute and piano and is trilingual. If we are going to use Latin as a language he is a polygot. I’d like to mention that he is African-American, but that really shouldn’t matter at least from my perspective it shouldn’t.</p>

<p>I can see why you think that the curriculum my son follows is much like the IB. However, it isn’t. The IB curriculum is taught in one language and there is no external international committee that comes to examine IB students. IB students are not required to take and pass a 17-hour exam in order to determine their readiness for college. But as you have already mentioned each state and country have their own approach to academics.</p>

<p>The curriculum my son follows is normally taught in 5 years in Italy. It is taught in 4 here in the US.</p>

<p>I still wish I can have an idea of the rigor of four years of high school in the US from a competitive high school without AP. I’d like to know. </p>

<p>Here is a link to learn more about liceo scientifico if you are interested.</p>

<p>[Liceo</a> scientifico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liceo_scientifico]Liceo”>Liceo scientifico - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>Of course it matters that he is african american, they are still underrepresented in colleges, especially males, just as it mattered that my daughter are first gen college & have learning differences.
That is part of who they are, and their schools looked at their whole application, not just test scores.</p>

<p>I haven’t read all the posts, but it seems perhaps the guidance on college selection should begin at his high school, they should have past experience with colleges and how to find the best fit.</p>

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<p>The mistake the OP is making is confusing the “merit” in “merit scholarship” with actual academic merit. The two really have little or nothing to do with one another.</p>

<p>Colleges do not offer merit scholarships to reward academic merit. Merit scholarships are discounts from sticker-price tuition that colleges use to charge different prices to different students in order to maximize accomplishment of multiple goals. One of those goals, probably the most important, is maximizing revenue, and colleges have very sophisticated models that tell them how to use tuition discounts to get affluent students to enroll (thereby paying almost full price, and providing multiple sources of potential gifts). Another goal may be attracting more students or better students who are interested in a particular area of study or extracurricular activity, maybe one where the college has not been successful in the past. A third goal, often very important, is improving the college’s statistical profile and numerical ranking. Since those profiles, and the most popular ranking system, use GPA and standardized test scores as the main proxy for entering student academic quality, because there really isn’t any other easily available heuristic for that. In those cases, the college isn’t saying, “We think high school GPA and SAT scores are the most important measure of academic ability.” It is saying “Enrolling students with higher high school GPAs and SAT scores will raise the range of high school GPAs and SAT scores that we have to report to the public, and that are used to rank us.”</p>

<p>Of course, that’s not entirely fair to kids going to special, academically demanding Italian liceo programs, but, frankly, there are not enough kids doing that to worry much about, and most of them (and their counterparts in the middle of the class at hyper-competitive NYC private schools, or elite boarding schools) are doing just fine, anyway. The colleges they most want to attend recognize fully the quality of their secondary education programs. If that doesn’t translate into merit scholarships, it’s because merit isn’t the point.</p>

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<p>Actually, most who studied in Europe who later taught in US high schools…including mine have said the APs don’t compare with the Abitur in Germany or other European school leaving exams. </p>

<p>Moreover, while some of the STEM APs may be equivalent/close to equivalent, I know for a fact others like APUSH isn’t remotely comparable to the equivalent course covered at most T-30 colleges/universities. </p>

<p>One older college classmate ended up needing a crash refresher in US history 101 from me despite receiving a 5 on that AP because he had so many knowledge gaps that he was struggling in intermediate/upper-level core courses in a related major. Several other classmates/acquaintances with 5s on that same exam admitted encountering similar problems because it didn’t go into the same depth as the equivalent courses at their colleges. </p>

<p>And I’m not even getting into the issue that several former HS teachers I’ve had have complained that the AP exams have been watered down over the last 2-3 decades because more students…including many who wouldn’t have been allowed to take them before due to their demonstrated academic performance. </p>

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<p>My relatives are also engineers themselves and hired other engineers from all over the world. They’ve had the near opposite experience depending on European country. In their experience spanning decades, a European engineering BS, especially one from countries like West Germany/Germany is on par with the best US engineering schools and their graduates.</p>

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<p>OP- a merit scholarship is a misnomer. It is a discount off the list price to attract a student who fills a strategic need in the student body.</p>

<p>My kids HS offered no SAT prep and did not encourage the kids to take SAT prep. It offered a traditional curriculum of reading, writing, math etc. and figured that if a kid was reading good books and challenging magazines/newspapers on their own, there was no need to “teach” how to take a test.</p>

<p>I very much doubt that your son’s curriculum hurt him in admissions. He may not have cast a very wide net-- which of course is his choice- but there are dozens of fine U’s in the US that would have understood the educational background he has and evaluated him accordingly.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the clarification.</p>

<p>I never considered that the way I was understand “merit” was different from the universities definition of “merit.”</p>

<p>Your post is helpful. It has given me a new perspective.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>Oh, I doubt the OPs school hurt the student although on the flip side it’s entirely possible someone in admissions somewhere wondered why he would take such an intensive history magnet type program for high school when the interest was engineering. But that might be said also for a kid that went to a performing arts high school and then decided on engineering or to flip it, a kid that went to a math/science magnet and decided to major in art in college. It’s something that in holistic admission can work either way. </p>

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<p>I’m not sure I understand this. I would say that not all kids with an American diploma are ready for college…but then again the American system is to get as many young people as possible through high school…of which some who choice classes to prepare for college will head off to college. Most of the ones that head off to college should be college ready (or at least those that go to selective colleges).</p>

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<p>Can’t say about other exams, but the Abitur is typically taken after a year more schooling than US kids have. Though that apparently is in flux: [Abitur</a> after twelve years - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur_after_twelve_years]Abitur”>Abitur after twelve years - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>I mentioned the Abitur because it or an equivalent is the only minimal credential acceptable for entry into academic German universities*. </p>

<p>Incidentally, an American high school diploma…even one full of APs wouldn’t qualify as an equivalent of the Abitur without additional examinations/coursework. </p>

<p>It’s a reason why the academic German Gymnasium graduates were regarded by some Americans as more equivalent of someone who graduated from an academically rigorous junior college rather than a high school grad. </p>

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<li>As opposed to the higher vocational schools which have now been remade as universities due to the EU-wide Bologna process.</li>
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<p>Cobrat, your post is precisely what I am saying. If a student earns a diploma that says he,she can attend any university in Europe and America, do SAT or GPAs really matter.</p>

<p>If I can use the IB as an example. If a student earns an IB diploma and wants to attend the University of Bonn in Germany, does his/her GPA or SAT score really matter?</p>

<p>It would be wonderful, if the US took that same approach</p>

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A German data bank of foreign educational credentials recommends that a US high school diploma with 4 AP exams (calculus, a science, a language, and a social science or humanities subject) should be considered equivalent to the German Abitur, and many universities do follow that recommendation.</p>

<p>For those who speak German: [url=<a href=“http://anabin.kmk.org/anabin-datenbank.html]Anabin”>anabin: Anabin - Informationssystem zur Anerkennung ausländischer Bildungsabschlüsse]Anabin</a> - Informationssystem zur Anerkennung ausl</p>

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<p>That’s a matter of opinion. Having spent time in Germany and in the University system and having relatives that teach in European universities I’m not totally enamored of the European system…but that is personal. I think really you are trying to compare apples and oranges. You can’t say one is better than the other because they aren’t the same. Some people will prefer apples and some will prefer oranges. That is quite different than asking about your family’s experience with your family’s high school relative to other people’s families and their particular high schools, AP programs, IB programs, how GPAs are caculated, the relative merits of ACT vs. SAT… The kids all seem to mush together in college and do fine… AP, IB, International…unless they flunk out for other reasons.</p>

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<p>I am having a hard time understanding the issue you are presenting. Is the point to say that the Italian education system is better therefore your S should be automatically admitted and receive merit. I apologize if I sound snarky. THat isn’t intended, I am just trying to understand. </p>

<p>Your S applied to several schools, was admitted to some, and further received merit to some. The issue may be that he did not cast a wide enought net. Or it may be that he is applying to more technical colleges instead of liberal arts colleges. </p>

<p>It is a rare high school that prepares students for the SAT. I don’t know of any student that did well on the SAT that didn’t self prepare/work with tutors out of class.</p>

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<p>I sent you my son’s schedule. That is a sample of what the top 10% of his school would take, some more geared to other disciplines, such as math, science, literature, history. You can see where his focus will be. </p>

<p>“Upon successful completion they are awarded a diploma which gives them access to attend any college or university in the European Union.” I don’t quite understand this statement. Any kid from any school in the US has access to attend just about any college or university in the EU without that diploma. They just have to considered good enough based on their US transcripts and test scores. My good friend’s son just got rejected from some such schools. His dad is Europrean and knows the system. Kids have been accepted each year from our school,but he was not deemed good enough. Would your son be allowed to go to any EU school, or would he have to apply? Are they equal in desirability or are some more selective than others? Does each school get a lot of applicants? Can each school accommodate all who apply? How do they decide who they take? Is it first come, first accepted, or is there some review as to who should be taken? My friend’s son will eventually get to where he wants to go through an exchange program–virtually 100%, but he wanted to go straight away and make the EU school is main one for college. But kids have been accepted from our school to EU schools each year. They tend to be the top students, however.</p>

<p>If your son can get into his pick of the EU schools with that diploma, he has a golden ticket and should go right on ahead. Here in this country he could get into 85-90% of the colleges with no trouble, but the top 10-15% get far more applicants than they can accommodate, so they have to pick and choose from those who apply. So really he has a very good spread even here in the US in terms of schools happy to take him. But when you are talking about schools like Columbia with single digit acceptance rates, well, they have to have some methodology as to how to decide who to take. So they look at SAT and ACT test scores to give everyone applying a level playing field, grades to see how well the person does in terms of discipline, consistence and following directions, and the difficulty of the curriculum taken which when your son gets that diploma should put him right up there. 2 out of 3 aint’ bad, but for Columbia and like schools, not good enough.</p>

<p>If his grades are not abysmal, I suggest he take a year off and take the ACT with ample studying. If he can take the AP Calc B/C and AP Physics C this spring somewhere, and get 5s on them (they are very standardized tests and I know many who have fived them without taking the course; it is standard Calc and Physics that is the same anywhere in the world) and spend a glorious summer and year doing wonderful things, I think he would have a far better chance of getting into Fu for fall of 2014. Right now he doesn’t have the diploma yet, and there is no indication as to where he is in what Columbia wants. URM, engineering, European preparedness, is a great combo so if he pulls up the test scores, gets the diploma, and shows he’s ready for the math/physics which is intense there, he’s looking pretty good.</p>

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<p>Focusedmom, I don’t quite understand how the EU system works. Anyone with a diploma can go to any school in the EU system? All of the schools are equally desirable and can take anyone who wants to go that has that diploma? </p>

<p>My SIL was not selected for the academic track in Europe. Her parents had to find a small private school to take her. She was a late bloomer, but oh how she bloomed. She graduated from the University of Zurich, got the Fullbright to study here and has a Harvard MBA as well as some other degrees. But she was cut from that track and had her parents not been persistent, she would be a secretary or nursery school teacher as that training would be as high as she could get without an Abitur in terms of academic courses. She always got top grades, but was a poor test taker, as a kid. </p>

<p>I think the main issue in the US is that there is a lot of lustre to a few schools that have gotten great name recognition. For engineering, the curriculum is consistent, and your son would get pretty much the same courses anywhere and be well prepared whether he goes to Stevens IT across the river, or FU. The jobs are such that the differential is not so great either. it’s just that there is a panache to Columbia that makes it desirable, and there is not the space to take everyone who wants to go there. </p>

<p>I have no idea what the top European schools are considered to be.</p>

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<p>Dear, Momofthreeboys,</p>

<p>The school my son attends is a Liceo Scientifico. There is only one academic track to take and it is the only choice the children have. There are no APs as all the courses the children follow are at AP level. What they have added to the curriculum is advanced English and advanced American History.</p>

<p>I agree with you when you say that not all kids that have an American high school diploma are ready for university, but I feel confident that children who have passed the Italian Maturita, the German Abitur or the French Baccalaureate are prepared for the rigors of university study both in their countries and the US.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your post.</p>

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<p>“I still wish I can have an idea of the rigor of four years of high school in the US from a competitive high school without AP. I’d like to know”</p>

<p>I’m not sure why you want to know that since competitive US high schools nearly all offer AP or IB courses. Some of my kids did go to a school that did not offer AP courses but anyone taking certain courses could take certain associated AP exams, since the courses covered most of the AP material and the school had a strong track record of high AP scores. A number of the independent schools have stopped designating their courses as AP, but many of their students do well on the AP exams. I had heard somewhere that the Abitur equivalence is 4 AP exams in Calc, Foreign Language, Science and History/Lit. I’ve been told that top colleges are not so much interested in a bunch of AP exams or courses, but like to see Calc, English Lang/Lit, Science in the mix. For top engineering schools the AP Calc (pref B/C) and AP Physics C are what gets them drooling.</p>

<p>Most American students will be going to state and local colleges where most of them have half a chance of getting in at worst. Many are pretty much open to everyone with very high acceptance rates. It’s just that we have some schools that a lot of people, including Europeans want to go to. Columbia is an example. Harvard too. And actually neither school is very selective if getting in there is all you want; it’s getting into the specific undergraduate program that is the Holy Grail. Getting into a grad program (though not some of them) or some of their non mainstream famous tracks is not difficult at all. College admissions in the US is not at all competitive, if you aren’t picky as to which school you want. Then, there is that little matter of cost, cough, cough. Columbia, Harvard and a number of private schools have people lining up for the privilege of paying $65K a year to go there. These are PRIVATE schools and can ask what they want for admissions. Here in NY we are lucky to have many inexpensive, excellent choices. If you don’t go for the sleep away experience, a CUNY will cost you, what? $4-6 a year. Beats sending him to Italy for their public schools! You gotta pay room and board for college there too, if you don’t live locally.</p>

<p>It’s too easy to compare apples to oranges, as the saying goes when you look at the European educational programs and the US ones. Your son is a private school here in the US. Where he would have gone to high school in NYC in the public arena, I don’t know. Bronx Science? Styuyvessant? Those are what the screening test will tell you at 8th grade. But pretty much, no matter where you go, you can get into a college. Not so in Europe. You’ll be fitting shoes at a shoe store at age 14 if you don’t pass the test. Only get to go to a pure academic college if you score pretty danged high. So you are pre selected at an early age to even be permitted to take the type of courses that your son has. THat is not the average Italian’s or European’s preparation. SO the cuts come a lot earlier in Europe. And the public universities seem to be the ones where people want to go. Well, here it’s pretty much the privates with HPYMS. </p>

<p>As for merit money. it’s for the student types that the school wants the most. Had your son appled to some schools out of area, like the midwest or CA he might have gotten more money at equivalent schools. Unlike European universities that tend to serve the local populace with many of the ug students commuting from home, we like diversity and want to see people from all over this big country represented and getting together at college. NYU really should change their name to USA U as they really do like someone from Ohio coming there, over another NYer as they have them lined up across the bridge for a place in that school. Many selective schools will give merit and some admissions preference for some form of diversity. </p>

<p>The typical US high school without the AP courses probably would not be sending most of their kids to college, and those going would be going to community college, some local schools, with most of the top kids wanting to go to State U, and only a few going OOS or to some private school outside of the area. My DH graduated from a high school where still only 30% go on to a 4 year college. But even they are not putting in AP courses, we found out.</p>