Academic Workload

Parent Cafe
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<p>Thank you so much for your reply.</p>

<p>In the Italian educational system after one completes middle school they chose the type of high school they want to go to. One can study at a high school or Liceo Classico, Liceo Scientifico, Liceo delle Scienze Humane, Liceo Artistico, Liceo Musicale e, Coreutico, Instituto Tecnico or Instito Professionale.</p>

<p>Upon successfully passing the State Exam (Esame di Stato or La Maturita’) the student can attend any University in Italy or abroad. A student who as attended Liceo Artistico would pursue studies at a university in Italy with a focus on the sciences as his high school courses did not prepare him/her for that. If that student wanted to study math and sciences, he/she would have to take the required courses in order to be up to par with the students who have attended a Liceo Scientifico. The fact that a student has earned his/her Maturita’ in a specific area tells the University that he/she has the necessary education to immediately insert him/herself into academia at the Italian university level. </p>

<p>If you have an American high school diploma (non-IB) or even a Bachelor’s degree or a Masters degree, one would have to get what is called “equippolenza titoli.” Essentially, what that is that the university where the student desires to study wants to see the value of the the academics that one as studied in their country to be sure the student is adequately prepared to attend university in Italy. If they are not then the student has to take remedial course so that he/she is up to par with the standard of the University.</p>

<p>I hope this gives you some insight.</p>

<p>Thanks for your post.</p>

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<p>I think the disparity here is that America’s tippy top universities are much more selective than Italian universities. With the current system, Harvard gets like 30,000 applicants for a couple thousand slots. If they said “we will accept anyone with xxx qualification,” well, we would have probably upwards of 100,000 of our young people making it their life’s work to get that qualification. Is that what we want?</p>

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<p>We also have a society where any high school graduate/equivalent or sometimes…even those who were dropouts can go off to college…including some pretty selective ones. </p>

<p>On the flipside, while the Italian or European systems may seem less selective on its face, the difference is that the most selective period was at the end of middle school when students are evaluated on whether they have what it takes to go to an academic high school geared for university entrance or not. The latter end up going to competitive vocational training schools, less/non competitive vocational schools, apprenticeships, or getting their first jobs. </p>

<p>If their parents have money and are persistent, they also have the option of going to countries with more flexible educational systems like the US for high school and university. </p>

<p>Another alternative is some French universities accept anyone with a high school diploma, but employ year-end weed-out exams to determine who’s allowed to continue their studies into the next year. Around 50%+ are weeded out each year. While that may seem harsh, also keep in mind that these universities are often free/extreme nominal cost for French/EU citizens.</p>

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<p>OP- If i could hazard a guess- if your son had applied to Case, Purdue, or any number of engineering schools outside the Northeast corridor, you’d be looking at many more merit money offers. What’s limited his merit money is the over-supply of wanna be engineers from the NY area IN the NY area.</p>

<p>I don’t think it has anything to do with admissions officers not understanding his curriculum or over-emphasizing anything. A strong math student is likely to score high on any math test-- just because they like math. Engineering programs use performance on the math SAT as a proxy- not to screen, but as a proxy- of how solid the foundational math skills of a particular kid happen to be. Many colleges know that much of the math on the SAT is 8th grade level-- and doesn’t require particularly advanced computational skills.</p>

<p>But kids who don’t score high on the math SAT are likely to struggle with the engineering curriculum at a competitive university.</p>

<p>I think your son will have some wonderful options once all his acceptances are in- and presumably you are happy with the academics at his HS-- so all will be behind you once he picks a college to attend.</p>

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<p>Focusedmom, having had kids in rigorous private school where all of the kids are preselected, and then having a steep grading curve, I can well understand your frustrations about the way grades work. It’s s tough pill to swallow that a “B” average at Rigorous Academy does not an “A” at the Easy School make. Those colleges that know of Rigorous Academy will make some adjustments, knowing well what that curriculum is like, but they are also going to try not to penalize a bright kid going to a public Easy School because that his lot in life. They want some of those unpolished gems too. </p>

<p>The discussion would often come up as whether kids have a disadvantage gradewise at the more rigorous school and it is galling when one sees a peer of a friend who stayed at such a school get great grades while your kid is pounding salt to get the B’s because the standards are so high and sometimes no weighting. That s the risk and trade off you make when you put a child in a rigorous school. You can gain a lot in the depth and richness of the curriculum the student gets, but you can lose out in GPA. But if your kid can do well at such a school, the chances do go up in terms of selective college admittance.</p>

<p>My BIL’s family is in Texas, where it particularly hurts to have a kid in a challenging school. His kids are in very competitive private school, and with the 10% rule as to who gets an auto admit to UT Austin, most of the kids at that school may well have been disadvantaged for that choice of college because they are in a tough high school with so many top performing kids, that making that cut is all the more difficult. One of the cousins would likely have had a good shot at the public schoool or less selective high school. It’s going to be tight one as to whether he makes top 10% at his school But kids going to that school are very well prepared for college and got many advantages going three. You get some goodies but there are those drawbacks too.</p>

<p>Here in NY, it’s all good, in that our state schools are pretty good and still accessible for most kids in a college prep mode. Affordable too. I think our university system is one of the most underated if not the most underrated in the country. And a good part of that is because of so many excellent private schools that we have here. I don’t think Europe has the many private universities and the privates have not taken over so many of the top school reps that the ones here have. Your son has a nice set of picks of engineering schools, and I, too, think he’ll find that he has a lot of choices by the end of the year, and his high school education will hold him in good stead in college.</p>

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<p>Focusedmom, this is what my oldest took:</p>

<p>Latin through AP including a year of poetry and a year of the Aeneid.
Math through Linear Algebra
AP Physics C, AP Chemistry, AP Bio (and each of those courses at the basic level), honors level Astrophysics
AP Comp Sci AB (as a freshman - then taught himself)
Four years of English (one of which did American Lit in conjunction with AP US History), one year of mythology
Two years of World History, AP US History, AP Economics
NY government requirement rolled into the Economics course
Health and PE and art as required by NYS</p>

<p>Top GPA and SAT scores. He got merit money at RPI, and WPI, but not at CMU. His other colleges don’t offer merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Younger son had similar courses, minus AP Chem, AP Comp Sci, AP Latin and Astrophysics. He took AP Euro instead of AP Econ and got out of the Econ and Gov requirement by passing an exam. He did double orchestra all four years. He got a merit award at one safety school.</p>

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<p>Blossom,</p>

<p>I appreciate your perspective. I hadn’t considered looking at other universities. Perhaps it was a little naive on our my part, I followed the suggestions of the high school counselor and she never suggested those schools. It’s water under the bridge now.</p>

<p>It’s funny that all the schools that she suggested are for the most part in the northeast.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much Mathmom for your response.</p>

<p>I am feeling so much more hopeful that he will get into the colleges he has applied to. I just hope they recognize that the courses he has taken over his high school career have all been AP although they don’t have the AP designation.</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Your son can take AP exams without taking the courses. My kids took them without the courses, once because one did not qualify for the course, another time the school did not offer it but he knew the material , and a whole lot of times because one of the schools that some of them attended did not have AP courses. None of the courses were designated AP. If you wanted to take the AP exam, you let the department chair know. About 3 weeks before the exam he would give those kids who were going to sit for the exam a study pack and they would have a few practice test sessions. of whicn my one son skipped all. The school said that the AP core material were covered by the courses, and they had the results on record to back them up as those kids tended to get 4s and 5s on the exams. For math and physics, in particular, the material is standard stuff. I suggest you have your son sit for them, so you see where he is in those important disciplines for his major as compared to those kids who did take AP courses. Also if he excels on the test, he will get college credit and be permitted to start at an upper level at most colleges if he so chooses. The tests are in May so there is time to take some practice tests—the books are out there. </p>

<p>It’s not that colleges recognize and give AP courses a big boost. They only do so at those schools that have in their Profiles that the kids tend to do very well on the AP exams. If you take an AP course and don’t get a 4 or 5, it s’ not going to do much for you most of the time. Certainly will not give you credit in the area of your major and some schools won’t even accept the score as part of the major requirements. </p>

<p>Your son’s transcript and the type of program he took will not get as much of a boost as you might hope because it is not commonly known in the US and even if it were known, there needs to be an established track record of your school’s students excelling. College do recognize certain schools as having rigorous curriculums because of that track record. Doesn’t matter what the school offers, but what the students going through the school do with it thereafter . That is a bit of a benefit one gets to offset that grade deflation at schools that are truly rigorous and the students all so sharp that ranking them is pretty much a flat line.</p>

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<p>Any IB student that also takes AP exams would agree with this…</p>

<p>AP hands out 5s like candy on halloween.</p>

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<p>Hi Focusedmom: As someone said, comparing the educational systems is like comparing apples and oranges – they are just two different systems with different grading policies and there are pros and cons of each. Standard of secondary education is definitely higher in most of Europe; however having to do hours-long tests at the end can really put pressure on students. Sometimes a career path you want depends solely upon those exit exams. In the US, the pressure is not as much (unless perhaps you are in IB or AICE) but that can lead to laziness on the part of students to do just enough to get by. But, if you really work hard, you can go anywhere.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, GPA (as different as it is between even school districts within states, let alone state to state) and SAT/ACT (total but necessary waste of time in my eyes) do count, but most US colleges I think do take a ‘whole’ view of the student and recalculate their own GPA. Our HS school district does not weight GPA for example, so someone who has never taken an honors/AP/DE course could be valedictorian over someone who has taken a much more difficult course load but only received a B. </p>

<p>From personal experience, the rigor of AP classes and Dual Enrollment (first two years of Gen Ed) in the US are about equivalent to graduating secondary school and passing exams in Europe, but don’t think you will find many US college admissions officers who will have an inkling of that!</p>

<p>No matter what, you have done the best thing for your son - with the schooling he has had, he should find college in the US no problem and with his languages, he will have an array of options where to work upon graduation.</p>

<p>Good Luck in the college search!</p>

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<p>They also don’t always guarantee genuine proficiency with the material as I’ve observed with several older and same-year college classmates and from what I’ve heard from friends and Profs/TAs at many other elite/respectable colleges.</p>

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<p>^And sometimes kids know a lot more than what that 5 indicates. We had an AP Stats teacher at our high school who used to be finished with the AP curriculum in November - then he’d spend the rest of the year teaching them real stats.</p>

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<p>That sounds like the typical AP course at my NYC public magnet. Then again, it was so commonplace for non-AP students there to get 4-5s just by looking at a study guide for a few weeks before the exam. </p>

<p>As for the college classmates scoring 5s and having issues in college, most of them attended private day schools with tuition rivaling those of private elite/respectable colleges.</p>

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<p>Maybe already mentioned, but if this is a good school, then someone in guidance ought to be able to tell you how colleges will read his application and which colleges are receptive to his curriculum…many colleges are now score optional and there are students from all kinds of HS backgrounds, so college admissions knows how to handle students like this (there are other ungraded schools out there or schools that use alternative evaluations, also homeschooled, not to mention students from abroad).</p>

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<p>First, I don’t think that diploma would get your S into “any” college in Europe. He’d have to apply. I doubt Cambridge or Oxford would stamp his file “auto admit” merely because of the high school your S attends. Your messages make it sound as if they would. </p>

<p>Second, based on your posts and the website of your S’s son, it emphasizes subjects other than math and science. Perhaps that impression is incorrect. You say your S has high SAT II scores. Did he take the math 2c SAT II as well as at least 2 in bio, chem or physics? Did he take an AP test in at least one ? (I just reread your messages. Your S took math 1c and 2c and physics. I would suggest he take chem as well.) </p>

<p>It’s not necessary to take an AP course to take the test. I note that he is taking analytical calculus this year. If I were you, I’d have him take a practice AP test for both AB and BC calc and see how he does. If he does well, try to arrange for him to take the test for real. It will take place after admissions results, but if he’s wait-listed anywhere, a good score might help. </p>

<p>Third,forgive me for being blunt, but… as JHS explained, merit money often depends on things other than academic merit. African-American males interested in engineering with good SAT scores are limited in number. Some colleges will offer your S merit money to increase the odds he will enroll in them because he is African-American. Colleges which are on the high end of the spectrum for diversity are less likely to offer your S merit money than are colleges which have few African-American students. So, it may be that the discrepancy in the amount of merit money your son was offered by colleges is explained by that. (I’m not saying that IS what happened…only that it might be. )</p>

<p>Your S’s son is very small. It probably sends very few students to tech type schools. So, these schools may well be unfamiliar with it. That makes it important that he take standardized tests–SAT IIs and AP exams–in math and science. If his school offers the AMC and it’s not too late for this year, he should also take that.</p>

<p>If your S doesn’t have great grades, standardized test scores will be especially important.</p>

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<p>I think the OP’s son will have some nice choices soon. And with all of the exams he is taking to keep his European study options open, it’s a lot to add the APs to the list of “to dos” at the end of the year. Those schools will likely to some sort of screening to see where he should be placed in math and any other subjects if there is question. My one son got a 3 on his AP calc, which did not give his credit towards math subjects but would be counted as gen ed credits, and also made him eligible to take an accelerated calc course (2 semesters, differential and integral calc in one) that takes care of his calc/math requirement. Without the AP score, the college would have given him a placement test for that option.</p>

<p>I have my Abitur from many years ago, but never looked into what privileges it gave me in terms of education in Europe since I was focused in going here in the US. I remember vaguely that there was some application process, and that you did not necessarily get into any Univeritaet that you wanted,but it is possible that in Italy things are done differently. My son’s high school does have kids going into European schools as well, but those who get into the top schools in England (the usual venue) are the top students too. One student I know was turned down from his choices of British colleges, and his gpa was pretty danged good, and he had an advanced slate of classes taken.</p>

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<p>“First, I don’t think that diploma would get your S into “any” college in Europe. He’d have to apply. I doubt Cambridge or Oxford would stamp his file “auto admit” merely because of the high school your S attends. Your messages make it sound as if they would.”</p>

<p>This is true to some extent. He would even have to apply to any university in Italy, otherwise, they won’t know who the student is. However, to be considered for Oxford, he would have to have earned 95% on the Maturita exam in order to be considered for admission to Oxford. If you want to you can visit the following sites for info:</p>

<p>[Entrance</a> requirements for international students](<a href=“Study at Cambridge | University of Cambridge”>http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/international/requirements.html)</p>

<p>[International</a> Qualifications - University of Oxford](<a href=“http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/international_applicants/international_qualifications]International”>International qualifications | University of Oxford)</p>

<p>“Second, based on your posts and the website of your S’s son, it emphasizes subjects other than math and science. Perhaps that impression is incorrect. You say your S has high SAT II scores. Did he take the math 2c SAT II as well as at least 2 in bio, chem or physics? Did he take an AP test in at least one ?”</p>

<p>To clarify…</p>

<p>What I posted on this portal is not an impression. It’s fact. You may like to visit the following website to see the curriculum all Italian Liceo Scientifico students follow in Italy. All it is is normal public school education. Here is the link:</p>

<p>[Liceo</a> scientifico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liceo_scientifico]Liceo”>Liceo scientifico - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>The SAT exams that my son has taken and done well with are the SAT comprised of CR M and Writing, in addition to the subject tests. Math I, Math II, Physics, Literature and Italian. He did very well with all of them. He did not take the AP and he has no intention of taking any AP examination. At present he is dedicated to taking and passing the Italian Maturita’ which is a 17 hour exam.</p>

<p>“Third,forgive me for being blunt, but… as JHS explained, merit money often depends on things other than academic merit. African-American males interested in engineering with good SAT scores are limited in number. Some colleges will offer your S merit money to increase the odds he will enroll in them because he is African-American. Colleges which are on the high end of the spectrum for diversity are less likely to offer your S merit money than are colleges which have few African-American students. So, it may be that the discrepancy in the amount of merit money your son was offered by colleges is explained by that.”</p>

<p>Thank you for your perspective.</p>

<p>“Your S’s son is very small. It probably sends very few students to tech type schools. So, these schools may well be unfamiliar with it. That makes it important that he take standardized tests–SAT IIs and AP exams–in math and science. If his school offers the AMC and it’s not too late for this year, he should also take that.”</p>

<p>My son’s school follows the curriculum of the Italian Ministry of Education. We think he is sufficiently challenged. Thank you for your suggestion.</p>

<p>Regarding analytical calculus, he is doing very well with that. Thanks for the suggestion though that he take the AP.</p>

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<p>Thank you Caird.</p>

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<p>I’d like to add that the EU has facilitated movement of students from one country to another within the countries that are part of the EU.</p>

<p>I recognize it might be hard to believe but being accepted into universities within the EU is not so different than attending a university in a different state. The only challenge is the language and many Europeans speak more than one language.</p>

<p>The same way one has to have a high school diploma or a GED in order to attend a college or a university in the US, the European Union has standards and FOR THE MOST PART (caps for emphasis) within the EU. European students earn a credential, without taking standardized exams or advanced placement exams or worrying about maintaining a specific GPA in order to qualify to attend university.</p>