Academic Workload

Parent Cafe
61

<p>fm,</p>

<p>I may have failed to explain my point well. I googled and found out the name of your S’s school. I looked at its website. I suspect that would be step one for an admissions officer who was unfamiliar with the school. The website of the school itself makes it seem to me as if it is not focused on math and science. As I said before, my impression may be erroneous. It is simply based on the curriculum you listed and the website of the school itself. For example, the website says:</p>

<p>"… the only school in North America that provides a classical, bilingual education rooted in the Italian and European traditions. "</p>

<p>" A classical education" rooted in Italian and European traditions to me is one that stresses the humanities, Latin, history, etc…not math and science. The list of the courses in your post enhanced the impression that, while math and science are part of the curriculum, they are not the focus of it.</p>

<p>It may well be an erroneous impression…you obviously know a lot more about the school than I do. </p>

<p>I was also not suggesting that your S take additional tests because he was not sufficiently challenged. I was suggesting that he take additional tests with which the admissions officers at tech-oriented American colleges would be familiar so as to enhance the odds that such colleges would admit your S.</p>

62

<p>Jonri,</p>

<p>This might give you a bit more insight regarding the curriculum.</p>

<p>[Liceo-High</a> School | La Scuola D’Italia Guglielmo Marconi](<a href=“http://lascuoladitalia.org.s98094.gridserver.com/educational-programs/liceo-high-school/]Liceo-High”>http://lascuoladitalia.org.s98094.gridserver.com/educational-programs/liceo-high-school/)</p>

<p>Best.</p>

63

<p>I won’t post again in this thread…</p>

<p>I had already read that link. The language in it helped create the impression that math and science play a secondary role at your S’s school.</p>

64

<p>In 2010, Oxford accepted 10 of the 197 (5.1%) Italian nationals who applied for undergraduate courses. The acceptance rate for domiciled Italians was 6.3% (11/175).</p>

65

<p>OP says that she followed the advice of the school’s guidance counselor in choosing colleges for her son to apply to. I think many CC posters would agree that high school guidance counselors don’t necessarily have a complete perspective on U.S. colleges. This is probably especially true for schools that are 1) very small, 2) send a significant proportion of their graduates to university outside the U.S. and 3) may not see applicants for specialized programs like engineering very often. A good question to have asked would have been, How many recent graduates of the school have gotten into strong engineering programs in U.S. universities?</p>

<p>For families that are thinking seriously about college choices it makes sense to get another perspective beyond that of their high school guidance counselor. Coming to CC before applying to college is more helpful than coming here after the applications are all in.</p>

<p>And in our family neither of the parents chose the schools to which our children applied. We suggested plenty of choices, but our children chose which to apply to and which to attend.</p>

66

<p>Dadx3,</p>

<p>In retrospect, I now realize that high school guidance “don’t necessarily have a complete perspective on U.S. colleges” or on different types of high schools.</p>

<p>We chose to follow the advice of the guidance counselors because of their reputation. The organization is called [Expert</a> Admissions: College Admissions Counseling, New York City College Counselor, college application help, college acceptance, ivy league schools, college essay help](<a href=“http://www.expertadmissions.com%5DExpert”>http://www.expertadmissions.com) was featured on the news etc. I am sure they are quite effective with schools different from the one my son attends. This is second year they have been working with the school</p>

<p>I am beginning to realize now that very few high school guidance counselors have experience working with small schools like the one my son attends and perhaps they were not in a position to give us the best direction.</p>

<p>Regarding CC, I was unaware of this portal and do wish I had know about it before the whole application process, however, that is water under the bridge. There is a wealth of information to glean from on this site that I do wish I had at my disposal when my child was in the ninth grade.</p>

<p>Thanks for your insite.</p>

67

<p>Focused mom, many of us wish we knew things that we didn’t when our kids applied to college. The system is so different than when we were all in HS, and even if you assume you’ve “kept up”, there are so many surprises along the way.</p>

<p>One nice surprise- most kids end up happy in college. In my own kids HS, there were parents that ranged from totally clueless to pretty savvy (we were approximately in the middle) and believe it or not, most kids end up loving where they attend.</p>

<p>One thing that I did see played out time and time again- colleges don’t admit high schools- they admit students. My kids had friends at their colleges who attended well known prep schools which had the savviest guidance counselors on the planet, to a small HS on an Indian reservation which had never sent a kid “back East” to college before. The level of preparation varied tremendously-- big, wealthy HS have terrific science labs and wonderful performance spaces and tremendous libraries and all sorts of coaches and auxiliary teachers. Little HS’s in rural areas have none of those things. But somehow the admissions officers manage to figure out which kids have excelled-- really used the resources at their disposal, whether magnificent or meager.</p>

<p>Your son will end up some place fantastic, regardless of how much or little you knew about the process in the 9th grade!! And think of the hours you didn’t have to waste learning all the acronyms and the buzz words.</p>

68

<p>Blossom,</p>

<p>Thanks for your encouraging perspective.</p>

69

<p>So your school outsourced the college selection, application process? I don’t think it could have been done better unless you, as the parent did all of the research yourself, and even then being too close to the student, has its issues. </p>

<p>My kids went to some schools with top reputations for college placement, and many parents went ahead and got private counselors anyways, but sneaked around about it because the school GCs were not big on that sort of thing at all, and made that known.</p>

70

<p>Is your son excited about any of the schools he applied to? Does he have a clear favorite or does he like all of them? How many did he apply to?</p>

<p>How does he feel about the results so far? Is his search for “merit” money due to financial constraints or just icing on the cake? Meaning is it necessary for him to obtain merit monies in order to attend college?</p>

<p>Did he have any desire to look to schools outside the northeast and how firm is he in his decision to pursue engineering? Did he participate in robotics design, engineering summer programs and outside ECs pursing engineering, math or science competitions?</p>

<p>Has his current school had any recent acceptances to MIT, CalTech, CMU, or any of the other top engineering schools? Or maybe any of the top math programs? I ask to gauge how much exposure his school has had to top tier engineering programs.</p>

<p>As far as admissions and “merit” money the above posters have done a great job explaining how the use of merit money can be used to maintain yield. Universities/colleges are building classes not just a class of individuals. It is disconcerting coming here to CC after apps are in and done to discover the wealth of info and SUPPORT that is CC.</p>

<p>Having been here for 10+ years it has provided my family with invaluable insight, advice and guidance that has proven to be a treasure trove. As far as your son specifically, you always have options. The general feeling seems to be he will find a great place for him. If for some reason that doesn’t work out the way he wants CC will be here for tons of more advice!</p>

<p>And welcome!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

71

<p>OP - I think your original question was what engineering colleges are looking for.
My Son applied to and got into a number of colleges with decent engineering programs.
He is has decided to go to Georgia Tech ( We live in georgia) which was one of the schools your son applied to.
So here is what my son took:</p>

<p>4 years Spanish
4 years math - including AP Statisics and AP Calculus
4 years Science - ( Gifted biology,Gifted Chemistry,STEM Physics,AP Biology)
1 year Geography
AP American history
AP Government
AP MacroEconomics
AP Computer Science
4 years english including AP English Lit
1 year Debate
1/2 year health
1/2 year P.E
4 years Symphonic Band</p>

<p>Georgia Tech is a great school however it does not offer seem to offer much Merit Aid to OOS students…</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

72

<p>Michigan Georgia,</p>

<p>Our children have similar academic workloads. My son is also a flutist and a pianist and studies at Bloomingdale School of Music. He also studied flute at the Conservatory of Siena for five years. That was when we were living in Italy. He is a welding student at the Arts Student League. Volunteers four hours a week for the past five years at his place of worship. Earns his own pocket money tutoring students in Italian. Very good SAT scores. Good enough for the schools he applied to with Georgia Tech and Cooper Union being reach schools.</p>

<p>He received two decisions this weekend from GTech and RPI–Not Accepted. He is not upset about this. We are not concerned about merit aid. Just a bit disillusioned about the whole GPA SAT approach.</p>

<p>Oh I forget to mention. The curriculum my son completes is generally completed in five years in Italy. It is completed four years here in the United States.</p>

<p>I am not the type to brag about my son. He is a great kid apart from his academic achievement.</p>

<p>However, the more I think about this, the more I will encourage my son to make choices that will put himself in a position to be marketable globally.</p>

<p>Thanks for your response.</p>

73

<p>Hello Kat,</p>

<p>In response to your post:</p>

<p>“Is your son excited about any of the schools he applied to? Does he have a clear favorite or does he like all of them? How many did he apply to?”</p>

<p>From my perspective, at the moment he is more concerned with his immediate goal which is successfully getting out of high school. He won’t be able to go to college if that doesn’t happen. From an American perspective, that statement might appear strange.</p>

<p>You see, with the Italian educational system, students are not accepted into universities conditionally. They first have to earn the right to attend university. This occurs when one passes the exit exam call the Maturita’. </p>

<p>One earns this right when: A Commisision administers the Maturita’ exam. The Commission is comprised of three teachers and head of school sent from Rome and three members of the Liceo (high school) faculty. The exam includes a six-hour math test, a six-hour written exam in Italian, a three-hour multidisciplinary test and an oral presentation of their thesis in Italian. Students who pass the exam are awarded a diploma which gives them access to attend any college or university in the European Union. In recognition of the rigor and strength of the academic program, many US colleges and universities award up to one year of college credit to students who earn a high score on the exam. The students are preparing for the exam at the present. They will receive notification on June 11, 2013 whether or not they have been invited to sit for the exam.</p>

<p>If he doesn’t pass, he doesn’t go to any of the colleges he has been accepted to. So he really doesn’t want to put the cart before the horse. According to his current academic trend he will do fine.</p>

<p>“How does he feel about the results so far? Is his search for “merit” money due to financial constraints or just icing on the cake? Meaning is it necessary for him to obtain merit monies in order to attend college?”</p>

<p>Icing on the cake. It would be nice for him to receive some type of scholarship since our family’s EFC is 99,999.</p>

<p>“Did he have any desire to look to schools outside the northeast and how firm is he in his decision to pursue engineering? Did he participate in robotics design, engineering summer programs and outside ECs pursing engineering, math or science competitions?”</p>

<p>My son has known for some time that he wanted to study engineering and is firm in his decision. It’s sort of too late to look at schools that are not on the northeast. However, upon successfully completing high school, he also has European universities as an option.</p>

<p>“Has his current school had any recent acceptances to MIT, CalTech, CMU, or any of the other top engineering schools? Or maybe any of the top math programs? I ask to gauge how much exposure his school has had to top tier engineering programs.”</p>

<p>No. Following is list of the schools where La Scuola D’Italia graduates have attended.</p>

<p>American Institutions: Rutgers, Suny Purchase, NYU, Manhattanville, Boston Univ, NYU Poly, Columbia University, USC, Binghamton U, Pace, Fordham U, Syracuse, Baruch, UMass Amherst, Penn State, </p>

<p>Italian Institutions: University of Bologna, Univ. of Pisa, Univ. of Messina, Univ. Bocconi, Univ. Roma, Libera Universita di Lingue & Communicazione - Roma, Univ. Milano, Univ. di Belle Arti, Milano, Univ. Verona, Univ. Padova, John Cabot - Roma</p>

<p>English Institutions: Richmond - American International University, Bristol Univ, Hull Univ, Univ. Birmingham</p>

<p>Israel: University of Tel Aviv</p>

<p>The vast majority of the above schools don’t consider SAT and GPA. Only the exit document.</p>

<p>“As far as admissions and “merit” money the above posters have done a great job explaining how the use of merit money can be used to maintain yield. Universities/colleges are building classes not just a class of individuals.” </p>

<p>I agree to some extent. I happen to think the admission committees of the schools my son has applied to don’t recognize the strength of the curriculum my son is following or it could be that I my perspective is myopic.</p>

<p>“Having been here for 10+ years it has provided my family with invaluable insight, advice and guidance that has proven to be a treasure trove. As far as your son specifically, you always have options. The general feeling seems to be he will find a great place for him. If for some reason that doesn’t work out the way he wants CC will be here for tons of more advice!”</p>

<p>Thanks so much Kat. I would have loved to find more information pertaining to my son’s circumstance on College Confidential. My son’s experience is unique and I would love the perspective of someone who has had a similar experience.</p>

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<p>OP- are any of the graduates studying engineering? Rutgers, BU, Penn State, Columbia etc. have fine engineering programs-but if your son has indeed applied to programs where nobody from his school has ever been accepted, my guess is that he had a bit of a challenge to overcome. Not the challenge you think- the focus on GPA and scores; but for HS with which an admissions committee is not familiar, the letter from the guidance counselor and the explanatory document which outlines the curriculum, the student body, etc. is critically important.</p>

<p>Did you see these documents and do you know that they accurately communicated what takes place in the classroom? I know in a town adjacent to mine, a parent requested the documents and was shocked to see that they were about 10 years old. They described a student population which was inaccurate; they referenced courses which were available which hadn’t been taught in years, etc. So an adcom from a school in Oregon or Montana that didn’t know the HS would check the supporting materials and get a very inaccurate picture of the curriculum in the school.</p>

<p>I think it’s great your son is following his “bliss”-- and I’m sure he’ll do great- but it is always challenging to be “the first” at a school to apply to a particular university. The first kid from my own kids HS to gain admittance to Julliard many years ago really paved the way- the school doesn’t have a particularly strong performing arts program so that kid really had to demonstrate uber-talent and initiative to get the HS on the radar screen!</p>

<p>I know many kids who have attended University of Tel Aviv and GPA from an American HS is very critical to admissions and SAT more so. Kids in Israel take their own type of exam which American applicants don’t take- so any objective evidence of academic achievement is extremely important. And Tel Aviv is NOT the engineering powerhouse school in Israel- that’s the Technion which is Israel’s version of Cal Tech or MIT.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the responses focusedmom. It does give a better perspective. Especially the US schools that have matriculated students from your son’s high school. College admissions, as you know, are very, very different from those in Europe. It is what it is, and in that mindset if your son wants an American engineering education at one of the top tier or upper tier schools you have to play to that audience.</p>

<p>Adcomms not only look at holistic admissions, GPA, board scores, AP scores, transcript, ECs but who the student is and can be. What the student can contribute to the school as a community is also a large factor. I know this is very different than that in Europe.</p>

<p>Many of the adcomms take into consideration where your son went to school, public or private, his ECs, his community service, his growth. My mantra “to whom much is given, much is expected” is echoed throughout many of the adcomm meetings and reps.</p>

<p>So matching your son’s transcript, GPA, SATs and ECs to some engineering schools can be seen as difficult. Especially one that does not emphasize science and math as much as other students applying.</p>

<p>My son’s experience was not similar to yours but he too faced some difficulties. He attended a rural, public high school in the south. Like your son, he too is a URM and but unlike your son our EFC is 0. His school also did not offer many APs, initially and it is as some say on the “other” side of the tracks, so not much money for extras.</p>

<p>He taught himself math through Def Eq after completing AP Calc Ab and BC early in high school. Same with AP Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Envir after completing Honors Bio, H Chem, Honors Physics, Anatomy and Physio, and of course the humanties AP European, AP US, Ap Micro, AP Macro, AP Lang and AP Lit, Spanish 1-4, AP Spanish after Honors 9, 10 english, and PE and Health. I am sure I have forgotten some!</p>

<p>In addition he was a 3 season varsity athlete all 4 years, captain last 2 years, 3 summers of science and math research at SDSU, UNC Chapel Hill and Duke. Installed and supervised the student-run tutoring at his high school and graduated val.</p>

<p>For college acceptances he was in early at MIT, Cal Tech and RD to Duke, Princeton, Swatmore, Amherst, Georgia Tech, Vandy, Rice,…the list has become exhaustive. My point is your son’s competition looks like my son’s list and all his fellow alums. </p>

<p>The schools of engineering are looking for a specific type of student and the student’s demonstrated interest in engineering. With so many public school magnets focusing on STEM having a high school education such as your son’s put him at a disadvantage compared to OTHERS applying to the same schools. That is why I asked what other US schools your son’s high school sends kiddos to.</p>

<p>Unfortunately at this late date not a lot can be done if you wish for him to matriculate in the fall. His education is asset to him, he is well educated and maybe an European college would be better suited to his previous training. However, if your goals are a US engineering degree I can see where the results so far are troublesome.</p>

<p>Did you look at any of the HBCUs? NC A&T has a great engineering program, ABET accredited and is a real gem. (I have another son at A&T, so I am biased!)</p>

<p>I wish you both well and hopefully all of us at CC can bhelp answer any of questions or just listen!!</p>

<p>kat</p>

76

<p>"European students earn a credential, without taking standardized exams or advanced placement exams or worrying about maintaining a specific GPA in order to qualify to attend university. "</p>

<p>This of course is only partially true, for admission to “normal” universities. In order to gain admission to Oxbridge or Grandes Ecoles, for example, one has to take extremely competitive written/oral exams. And in the French case, most students would have taken years of prep courses before taking such exams.</p>

77

<p>PCHope,</p>

<p>Thanks for your post.</p>

<p>Have your children attended European universities after having studied here in the US? If yes, it would be very helpful to me to hear about your experience as well as theirs.</p>

<p>Too, if they attended IB schools or schools that awarded diplomas other than the American High School diploma, I’d be interested to know how their education/credential aided them in the:</p>

<ol>
<li> College application process</li>
<li> Whether the IB course your children followed allowed them to earn college credits at American universities and</li>
<li> How their credentials facilitated entry into foreign universities</li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you in advance for your response.</p>

78

<p>

Really? You listed 15 American colleges and 16 European ones, and Tel Aviv.</p>

<p>I agree with Blossom, the bigger issue is convincing American University that he’s had a typical pre-engineering high school background. Hopefully that guidance company your school hired did it’s job. I’m a little concerned about the RPI rejection - though it’s gotten a lot more selective than when my oldest applied. From our school the average accepted GPA is 95 and the average SAT is 1370/1600 or 1990/2400. Most of the kids who apply are in the ball park and they only accept about 1/3 of them. I don’t have access to scattergrams any more so I can’t tell if they seem to favor SAT over GPAs. They know our school well. They always send someone to our college fair and to speak at college night.</p>

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<p>Sounds like you’ve provided a great foundation for your son wherever he ends up. Just a tip – you might want to be careful with providing too much personal information about your son (rejections and the like). Given the size of the school, your son’s academic interests and the demographic information you’ve provided, it would probably be pretty easy for people to figure out who he is. You’d be surprised by how many people read these sites. I’ve recognized the identities of a few friends-of-friends from their posts.</p>

80

<p>That’s a pretty strong group of kids Mathmom for only a third to be accepted to RPI.</p>

<p>It seems to me that the school hired experienced college counselors to work with the kids and the in house staff and teachers for the college process. That’s more than any school I know has done.</p>

<p>What has the pass record been for the school regarding the exam that your son will be taking to keep his European options optimal? It seems that a lot rides on that exam. With the SATs and ACT there really isn’t any “passing” score. My one son did not do well on them, but with Fairtest school options that did not look his test scores, and because his grades and course taken were good, he still was able to get accepted to some competitive schools. </p>

<p>My friend’s son was not accepted to his European school choices with grades and test scores that other kids at our school have had and gotten accepted at those schools. Luck of the draw and depends on who else is applying, I guess. According to his father, who is British and went through that school system and is very familiar with it, there are selective school in England and some not as selective, and admission is not automatic. They have their own exams that dictate the choices, apparently.</p>