Acceptance Shaming ("she only got in because she's _______")

Applying to College Admission Stories
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@lookingforward My lord, you are The King of Ad Hominem. You spend your time trying to deduce what my identity is and trying to undermine my credibility. Let me tell you something. We are both anonymous internet posters. We do know you have spent a longer time on a site that you yourself proclaim to be unreliable (as you have said when you said results threads as incomplete). What makes you think you are some sort of authority? Let me guess: next you’re going to tell me you were an adcom at Yale or something. Sure, and I’m an alien typing this post from Mars.

Not a single one of your posts even attempts to argue with my logic. None at all. You pop up periodically, say something about how I’m some whipper-snapper kid that doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and slink away. Stop wasting your time and try to actually attack my logic and my beliefs and try to get me on your side. Because that’s the point of any argument, isn’t it? To persuade others.

Let me tell you, attacks on credibility only get you so far. On the internet, they don’t get you very far at all because no one has any bit of credibility, so it’s all a wash. There’s a reason why I was considering not even replying to your post. It’s useless. What are we even going to gain from a conversation like this, where all you do is look down upon those you see as inferiors and dismiss them like a master does to a servant?

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Are you not a hs student? I am not the least interested in you identity, but in the hocus pocus you pass off as reality and fact, What freaking logic?

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@picktails Just tag those you want to respond to. It makes things more organized.

Income-based affirmative action would actually produce more diversity than race-based affirmative action. We already established that the vast majority of URM admits are middle class+. These URM middle class+ members belong to the same neighborhoods, the same schools, and the same type of houses as those of other races. They see the same streets, eat the same food (almost), and receive the same education. With some mild variations due to culture, URM middle class+ members ~= non-URM middle class+ members.

On the other hand, we have the poor kids. They don’t get birthday presents, don’t go out with friends, and don’t get allowances. They do have to deal with gang violence, subpar schooling, and rampant drug use. These kids see things that the rest of us will probably never see, and experience things that the rest of us privileged people will never experience. They feel the pressure of having to help provide to the family and the pressure of survival.

We see here that, regardless of race, poor kids will bring a far more diverse perspective than middle class+ URMs that have lived relatively sheltered lives compared to those in poverty.

I do believe fairness is more important than diversity, something you don’t believe in. But income-based affirmative action gets both, and in spades. It’s a win for education, and it’s a win for justice.

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@lookingforward “I am not the least interested in you identity, but in the hocus pocus you pass off as reality and fact, What freaking logic?”

OK, quote where I don’t make sense and I’ll try to explain to you as nice as I can. Don’t just make blanket statements. It’s lazy. It’s ineffective. It’s not good manners.

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Look at it from a cynical perspective, for illustrative purposes. These schools are businesses and having racial diversity in the class is good business for a lot of reasons. We know this is true simply because nearly every single highly selective college follows the same formula. @Swmc, can you make the opposite case? Why should they change their policies, from their perspectives? How is it bad for business to earmark a certain, roughly, percentage of the class for URMs?

These schools have a pretty good idea where they want their non-Asian SOC numbers to be each cycle. An admitted URM, in almost all cases, only takes the spot of a slightly less qualified URM, no one else. Just like an admitted football player takes the place of a slightly less qualified football player. No one is going to reject a star linebacker to make room for another math geek. They only reject the star linebacker when a slightly brighter star linebacker comes along.

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@Suchwowmuchcool‌, unless a student hacks into a school’s computer system and changes their rejection into an acceptance, they have not “stolen” anything. Kids have no control over whether they are accepted or denied, nor do they have any control over the decision other students receive. If a student is admitted, for whatever reason, congrats to them. they have no “stolen” it from someone else. Whether the admissions officer admitted them on a fair or unfair basis is not the fault of the admitted student.

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@Suchwowmuchcool:

If it’s not about you, what you perceive as admission policies that are unfair to others would result in “the privileged & URMs” taking THEIR spots, not “OUR spots.” Maybe you’re more personally invested in the outcomes of college admissions than you realize.

I can appreciate that you’re so passionate about helping those who are economically disadvantaged. There are so many ways to become involved — cooking and serving the clients in soup kitchens, sorting items at a local food bank, starting a free clothes closet for people who need professional attire but can’t afford it, organizing a supply drive for a local homeless shelter, helping Habitat for Humanity build houses, becoming a literacy volunteer — that the resume of someone with your passion should be outstanding. How people give back to their community is just one part of other people’s applications that we never see, but I think it’s an important one because it helps humanize the applicant. People who rely heavily on test scores and GPA to try to determine why somebody got accepted to a college that rejected them are missing the big picture. Your community service may make you stand out at whatever college that accepts you. Would it be fair to you for those with higher test scores to assume you got in because your family must know somebody, or you’re rich enough to be full pay, or poor enough that you fill some underrepresented SEC…?

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@YZamyatin Affirmative action is more of a political policy in my view. Much of the world of academia is liberal, and since they want this policy, they get it. Add on to that the fact that the Hispanic and Black populations’ strong activist groups vs. the almost nonexistent activist groups of Asians or Whites, colleges are pressured to favor affirmative action. That’s why all the selective colleges use this policy.

I can’t really see why it would be a business decision, because it’s not like they’re getting more tuition out of URMs or getting donations from the NAACP.

I don’t have an issue with athletic admits because they did earn their keep by working hard and being talented, as opposed to URMs being admitted over another more qualified applicant on the basis of skin color. It’s not like kids are just born as awesome basketball players. They have to beat the kids who don’t even have school as a priority, they have to beat kids at prestigious summer camps, they have to perform when scouted by coaches. The level of competition that athletics has makes becoming an athletic recruit is on par with going to a national Olympiad or something of that caliber.

But in the end, we both agree that these colleges are acting in self interest through these admission policies. This can easily be counteracted. If their self-interest is in conflict with public goals, then legislation must be produced to benefit the whole of society. Public universities, as we all know, can be coerced into banning affirmative action through legislation. Private universities can be coerced into ending affirmative action by threatening them with the cutoff of federal research funds if they don’t comply, much like Congress does when a federal agency doesn’t comply with its directive.

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Suchwowmuchcool. Wow, we almost eat the same food. Unfortunately the percentages you claim to be fact are contradicted by the simple fact that there is simply not as high of a percentage of URMs who are quote unquote affluent in comparison to whites and Asians. Maybe the issue is what you consider to be affluence. I can tell you that someone who makes a little over 100 k is not affluent. They are not poor but if you have 2 or 3 kids a mortgage etc… You are not affluent. You may not be able to opt for a private school education or afford the other things that help augment a student’s portfolio in the admission process. I’m sure you can search on line and discover the variances between wealth and reserves based on ethnicity. I won’t belabor the point. My children do not warrant the consideration that maybe I did in the admission process. However in the school my last child attended only 3% of her class looked like her as she was fortunate enough to attend the so-called school of affluence in our area and that’s a pretty consistent number amongst the better schools in my state. So where are the other students that populate the Ivy League schools coming from. In my last child’s class only 2 chose to attend top 20 schools.

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@austinmshauri When I said “our”, I meant the collective. That is, I was meaning those spots that all of us in this United States, including me, should have an equal shot towards.

“Would it be fair to you for those with higher test scores to assume you got in because your family must know somebody, or you’re rich enough to be full pay, or poor enough that you fill some underrepresented SEC…?”

Very, very few get in because their family knows someone. Those are like the Trumps, the Bushes, and the Clintons, people that are so powerful we can’t do anything about them getting in because they’ll always find a way to weasel their way in.

No one gets in because they are full pay. Almost all of the Ivy League if not all is need blind.

With the poor thing, there will always be ignorant people that don’t know what they’re talking about. For me, if I saw a poor kid end up getting in over me even if he had slightly lower credentials, I wouldn’t be mad at all. I would know that, hey, this guy dealt with so many more challenges than I did. In addition, I would also know that his diversity is an important part in contributing to the community of whatever Ivy is he going to. Most people would react in this way: just look at the high percentages of White and Asian people (those that typically acceptance shame because they are indignant by the shafting they receive) that are in favor of income-based affirmative action. Because the percentage of Whites and Asians people that favor income-based is so high, I suspect acceptance shaming would be a thing of the past, or at least died down because people know that these kids earned it.

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“unless a student hacks into a school’s computer system and changes their rejection into an acceptance, they have not “stolen” anything. Kids have no control over whether they are accepted or denied, nor do they have any control over the decision other students receive. If a student is admitted, for whatever reason, congrats to them. they have no “stolen” it from someone else. Whether the admissions officer admitted them on a fair or unfair basis is not the fault of the admitted student.”

@collegebound752 Alright, I’ll admit that “stolen” or “steal” is a strong word. How about “unfairly received over another more deserving candidate”?

According to my belief system, one has the right to feel proud when they earn an accomplishment. If I get a trophy for winning a tournament, I can feel proud. If I get a ribbon for being the best chef in town, I can feel proud.

What if I won a soccer tournament, and was about to receive the trophy with my team, but then suddenly another team, just because they were wearing the color pink, the favorite color of the tournament director, gets to receive the trophy and the tournament win? This pink team didn’t earn that trophy. My team did. And if this pink team is going to march around being proud of their “hard-earned accomplishment”, they had better be called out on it. And if my team insists, whenever they talk to members to the pink team, that the pink team didn’t deserve the trophy and the win, is it not their right?

It’s the same concept with admissions. Non-URM kids would have received admission, if it were not for the less-deserving URM kids that took their spots. Those non-URM kids have a right to “acceptance shame”, because it was supposed to be their accomplishment, their glory. The URM kids received the accomplishment essentially because of their skin color, something just a superficial as jersey color. And we are supposed to congratulate them? If you witnessed the hypothetical scenario at the soccer tournament I described, would you be angry at the pink team for not at least admitting that they did not deserve the trophy? Are they worthy of congratulations? No, you should not congratulate them and you should doubt their “achievement”.

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Suchwow, that assumes the admissions standards are objective, not subjective or ‘holistic’, which they are. It isn’t like basketball or baseball where there is a score that can be compared, it is more like gymnastics where there are points earned for certain skills (like GPA or SAT scores) but the entire routine is judged including the subjective areas of grace, music selection, appeal (essays, geographic diversity, minority status). Everyone who made it to the Olympics deserves to be there, but what extras are going to make them champions.

Some colleges admit students objectively (the auto-admit schools), and some countries run the entire educational system that way, but most of the elite colleges in the US don’t. They care about the essays and the EC and having an ethnically and maybe even economically diverse school, so admit that way.

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@Suchwowmuchcool, this is where you totally lose me. Your assumption that the URMs being admitted are not qualified is where you show your bias. The data shows no such thing, when you look at graduation rates. Do you think the ivies and such would continue their policies if the URMs were not succeeding? It is the basis on which you define qualified that they, and research, find your argument baseless.

You base qualified on the highest test score ONLY, and they don’t. That’s the crux.

Also, the middle/upper middle class URM absolutely has had a different experience than their white counterparts. Anyone ever pull your hair and ask if it’s real? Question your ability on appearance (as you keep doing?) Look stunned to learn you are a state-wide, academic decathlon gold-medal winner in debate like my D? You cannot quantify the personal road to success based on finances. Hence holistic admissions.

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@mayihelp As it has been extensively documented here on CC, going to a private school won’t help your admission chances. At my mediocre public school, two out of the three admits to the Ivies were URM.

“Unfortunately the percentages you claim to be fact are contradicted by the simple fact that there is simply not as high of a percentage of URMs who are quote unquote affluent in comparison to whites and Asians…I’m sure you can search on line and discover the variances between wealth and reserves based on ethnicity. I won’t belabor the point.”

As a whole, the URM population is less affluent. I know this. But it does not contradict me at all. Just like the White and Asian populations, the best applicants come from the top of each race’s income spectrum. You can quote averages of income between the races, but they are useless because we are only considering maybe only the top 20% of earners, those who make 100k. Those at the bottom of socioeconomic status maybe send out a few exceptional kids that can make the cut, but the vast majority comes from the top 20% of earners, because these kids have the time and the parental care to reach for the top schools.

There were 23,010 Ivy admits total for the class of 2017. According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, the number of Blacks enrolled in college was at nearly 2 million. Now cut that down to the top 1% of kids, or the top 1% of earners. 20,000 kids are a part of that demographic. There are nearly enough kids in the top 1% of the Black population that could fill the whole Ivy League!

“So where are the other students that populate the Ivy League schools coming from.”

From the 20,000 Blacks that are at the top 1% of earnings within their race.

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Don’t you realize that you are wasting your breath? Nothing you will ever say will ever convince them that they are misguided in their beliefs. It’s so odd how @streetcred was so insulted by @NewHavenCTmom‌s outrage at her dd being bullied by a young woman and commenting on her race, but she spews hate against blacks. That’s ignorance at its best. She is too limited to see where she is wrong.

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@twoinanddone My interpretation of “holistic” was that the admissions officers are being objective, or fair, while taking into account all parts of a person’s character or resume. I’d hope that they are trying to be objective, for the sake of their integrity. I mean, in the pursuit of objectivity, they have multiple people read essays and recommendations just to make sure they agree on how good their are. “Holistic” just means considering as many things as possible about an applicant before judging their worth. Objective vs. subjective is another issue, and for society’s sake, we’d better hope they’re on the objective side of things.

I’m not saying they should disregard all the soft variables. I’m just saying that they should just not consider race and legacy, things that applicants are born into and can do nothing to change. And I’m saying that the poor should get a higher boost to replace the race-based admits to account for their hardships. That’s all. We can consider the soft variables as we have always done, just without the scourge of race based affirmative action and legacy preferences.

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@collegebound752‌

FYI,

Maybe it’s your age, so you will be given the benefit of the doubt, but please be aware that when one posts articles discussing race, heated discourse will always follow. Also know that when the hatred is slung at URMs, very little is done.

When the acrimony is slung at others, everyone seems to come out of the woodwork in support of them. Please realize that the hate for blacks and Hispanics is real & present here on CC and elsewhere. So think twice before deciding to post an article or discussing issues of race.

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@picktails I have never based qualified on the highest score. I base it off ECs and achievements like winning tournaments and competitions, in addition to test scores and GPA. To both of our understandings, URMs typically lack in these regards compared to other admits.

“Your assumption that the URMs being admitted are not qualified is where you show your bias. The data shows no such thing, when you look at graduation rates. Do you think the ivies and such would continue their policies if the URMs were not succeeding? It is the basis on which you define qualified that they, and research, find your argument baseless.”

Yes, indeed, I have a bias. You have a bias. Everyone on this forum has a bias. We all take a position, and so we all are biased. Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

The data about graduation rates is irrelevant. We’ve heard again and again from Ivy League deans of admissions that they know that they could fill their school up three times with kids that would do well there. How well they do is not the issue. The issue is whether they deserve to go there over other kids that had better overall applications (including essays, recs, etc.) I do not just assume all URMs are not up to snuff. I continually qualify my arguments about affirmative action by limiting it to just those URMs who would not have gotten in if it weren’t for their race. And those exist, and in large numbers, according to Espenshade’s study when he noted that if affirmative action ended, Asians would take up 4 out of 5 spots of URMs.

“Also, the middle/upper middle class URM absolutely has had a different experience than their white counterparts. Anyone ever pull your hair and ask if it’s real? Question your ability on appearance (as you keep doing?) Look stunned to learn you are a state-wide, academic decathlon gold-medal winner in debate like my D? You cannot quantify the personal road to success based on finances. Hence holistic admissions.”

The middle/upper middle class URM has such a big difference in experience that it justifies preferential admissions? Bigger than the difference in experience between a White middle class kid versus a White lower class kid? It isn’t a big enough difference, and definitely not a big enough difference when you take the poor kid’s insights into account. I want you to respond to this part, if you can. Do you seriously believe a middle class URM brings more diversity than a poor Asian kid?

I didn’t target your daughter at all, and if she’s the 1/5 that would have gotten into Penn without affirmative action, then I am not talking about her. She’s fine. I’m talking about the other 4/5 that shouldn’t have made it in.

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Suchwow, you don’t think legacys are deserving either because they were “born into it”? Well guess what, who is giving that money that you want for the poor…NOT just URMs but all that are poor? I love legacy admits…their parents have been donating for years knowing the mission statement of their school. If they get a boost in admissions…good for them. Their parents are helping kids of lower income. You did say you favor income based help for all that need it, right? Well wherever you end up at school I hope you don’t take any scholarship money, after all that money probably came from a family whose kid stole somebodys spot.

My kid stole a spot at her medschool as well. Hope she never has to treat you or anybody in your family, she is highly unqualified and only got in because she is black. :-<

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Suchwow, can you give me a citation that 4/5 URMs shouldn’t have made it in?

Didn’t think so.