Advice please - Flunking son dilemma of parental involvement

Parents Forum
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<p>Yes, but you are projecting your own experience onto another, different experience. I have had family members with drug & alcohol problems, so I am definitely aware of what kind of things to look for. But that wasn't my son's issue. My son happened to come home for several months after his second year at college, and I had plenty of time to observe him and his habits, since he pretty much slept all the time and sat in front of the tv for about 10 weeks. Lazy, yes. Disorganized, yes. Immature, very. Substance abuse/mental health issues... no. He changed pretty quickly when he found a job that kept him busy and motivated him, and kind of shifted into work-a-holic mode for the next 2 years -- so a whole lot of his previous problem was simply ennui and not really being mature enough for college. Spending a few years on his own, working, helped him grow up and focus. </p>

<p>I know that also that things can be very different, but my point is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the OP's son has substance abuse or mental problems. He may, but the fact that he has messed up at school is not evidence of that -- many, many kids screw up at college and flunk out. Some of these kids are simply kids that did well in the highly structured environment of their high schools, living at home with their parents supervising and nagging as appropriate, and they don't have the personal & emotional tools to handle the freedom of college. So they spend too much time socializing and fall behind in their studies, and once behind they don't know how to catch up. If they were top performers at their high schools, they will feel acutely embarrassed by their first experience of failure, and may be afraid to admit their academic problems or to seek help. </p>

<p>I just don't think it helps matters to raise issues beyond those that are presented.</p>

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<p>No one has said that the OP's S has substance abuse issues or even emotional issues. People like me have, however, raised some possibilities of problems that she may consider looking into.</p>

<p>Perhaps they apply. Perhaps they don't. If the things that people suggest don't apply, the OP can ignore it. Better, however, to raise a possibility that may help the OP than to keep quiet while she continues to struggle with a problem that someone here may have been able to give her some useful advice that would have helped her solve it.</p>

<p>As for me, due to my years working in the substance abuse field, I've never said that anyone including my kids does not use drugs or abuse alcohol. I always qualify such statements by saying, "To my knowledge s/he doesn't...."
I even said this about older S before I had any clue that he was using.</p>

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<p>to the OP-- I'd think long and hard about breaking the lease. You probably don't want to add homelessness to the stuff your son is currently dealing with. Whatever the rent is... and whether you're on the lease or not.... this seems like a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things to keep a roof over his head in the near term just to provide some stability as he sorts out his life.</p>

<p>For whatever reason he doesn't want to live with you right now. Accept that.... accept that this apartment, good, bad or indifferent, is his current home, and try to look holistically at the situation.</p>

<p>To Citygirlsmom.... I hope and pray that you never see someone you love in a downward spiral. To suggest that this kid doesn't need counseling is being really, really naive and in very deep denial. Yes, he could just be lazy, irresponsible, etc. That's the best case scenario. To discover after it's too late that he was bi-polar, depressed, addicted, or whatever, and to live with the guilt that he wasn't properly diagnosed because his loved ones were busy being all puritanical and punitive about his behavior-- hey, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.</p>

<p>Back to the OP- quit worrying about him dropping classes, things showing up on his transcript, his GPA. You are long past that. Even if you all conclude several months from now that the only problem was that he didn't like engineering and therefore couldn't be bothered to do the problem sets or go to class.... there are dozens of colleges where he'll be able to get admitted and get himself a degree even with a less than stellar college track record so far. So- you'll worry about that later. Right now you need to stop acting like he's in 3rd grade and you're being called in for a conference with the teacher. If he won't check in with his college's counseling center, you could phone another family member, clergyperson, trusted family friend, etc. and just ask them to try and meet your son for a cup of coffee or breakfast at a local diner as a reality check.</p>

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<p>
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To Citygirlsmom.... I hope and pray that you never see someone you love in a downward spiral. To suggest that this kid doesn't need counseling is being really, really naive and in very deep denial

[/quote]
None of us on CC have anywhere enough info to have any idea if this young man needs counseling or not. There are numerous strings right now about kids struggling at school, and this is one of the more serious ones, and many people often advocate patience ... however I'd say often not nearly enough patience. </p>

<p>I went to college as an immature and undisciplined student ... true story ... Mr TA where should I go for my physics final? What's your TA's name? I don't know What does your TA look like? I don't know I never went to section. OK, what is your profs name? I don't know What does your prof look like? I don't know I never went to lecture. I was estatic when I got a D+ in this physics class ... and all that was wrong with me was that I was immature and undisciplined. And it took almost 2 years for me to go through the cycle of failing, figuring out I was the problem, and figuring out how I needed to change. I never flunked out but I got every grade Cornell has other than an F (D-, D, D+, C-, etc). I was "good" student in HS but that was measured by grades ... my work habits sucked in HS also ... there was no consequence yet!</p>

<p>Maybe this kid just is growing up ... and maybe something bigger is going on (depression or drugs) ... to the OP ... I wish you the best working through this and I believe you're the ONLY one with enough info to make a call if you think this is immaturity or something more.</p>

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<p>Whether or not her son has emotional or drug problems, my strong advice is for the OP to seek counseling to give her the support that she needs during this difficult time. Counseling also can help the OP recognize when she's reacting out of misplaced guilt or a delusion that she can control her son's actions.</p>

<p>" I'd think long and hard about breaking the lease. You probably don't want to add homelessness to the stuff your son is currently dealing with."</p>

<p>This is an example of where counseling can help: She probably has similar ideas as what was expressed by the poster quoted above. However, the truth is, if she stops paying rent, her son will have choices ranging from moving back home to living with a friend to getting his act together and being responsible. Of course, he also could choose to be homeless, but he could end up homeless even if she's paying the rent.</p>

<p>Just because her adult S prefers to live away from home and be irresponsible doesn't mean that the OP needs to help him do this by paying his rent.</p>

<p>My in-laws thought that my husband and I were cruel to not offer our financial support (except for health insurance) to our older son who had flunked out of college and insisted on living far from home (We would have allowed him back home if he had gotten a job and paid rent or if he had returned to fulltime schooling).</p>

<p>Consequently, an in-law allowed S to live rent free with her in her lovely condo, and other in-laws gave S money to buy cars, which he promptly wrecked in accidents due to misjudgement. </p>

<p>When after a couple of years, the in-law who S was living with retired and moved away (after delaying her move for a year to try to support S), when she announced that she was leaving, S became angry and walked out. She called us in a panic convinced he was living on the street.</p>

<p>My husband and I knew S well enough to guess correctly that he had moved in with friends, which was exactly what he had done. When he got tired of that marginal existance in the ghetto, S and a friend got their lives together enough to move to a new city where S got a fulltime job doing clerical work at a Fortune 500 company. He takes convenient, comfy public transportation to work, and is living with his friend in an apartment that S says is comfortable, though not lavish.</p>

<p>Back to the OP: Even if it ends up that her S is mentally ill or is on drugs, she can't save him by paying his rent while he irresponsibly lives away from home. A good therapist can help her see clearly her son's situation and what kind of choices that she has.</p>

<p>On the bright side: I know at 3 middle aged men who flunked out of college and drifted around for several years. This includes at least one who did a lot of drifting on the road and on drugs. All went back to college and got advanced degrees: Two have doctorates. Two are college professors. One has been an adjunct instructor at a college. </p>

<p>One became a finance professor and took early retirement and makes big bucks as a consultant. Another is an English professor who recently published a book that won a major writing award. The third has been an adjunct teaching college English. He wrote a book that became a best seller in Europe. </p>

<p>All are married, and seem to have happy, stable, ethical lives, and seem to be very financially comfortable. There really is hope.</p>

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<p>"he was a strong student in HS, not in college...and yes he could be doing drugs or drinking, or he could have gotten in such a mess, he can't get out"</p>

<p>While I'd keep my eyes open for signs of drinking, drugs or depression. I agree it could just be the got in a mess panic. That was my best friend first term freshman year. She got herself into four year long courses that weren't good fits. She'd been a straight A student in high school, but had never written a research paper. Three of her courses required papers every few weeks, and the fourth was German. She turned out to be language dyslexic and after flunking a couple of language courses was finally tested and excused from the requirement. I remember one time visiting her and she was sewing a dress instead of writing the paper or studying for the next day's exam. She'd just given up. The funny thing is that she left Harvard, went off to U. of Fl, almost graduated from there, and then decided maybe it was stupid to throw away a Harvard education. She came back to Harvard and did much better the second time around.</p>

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<p>Just because he doesn''t see all the consequences of his behavior doesn't mean he is in need of the kind of counseling and intervention being pushed here. You have lacrosse players hiring dancers, partying all over campus, they don't see the consequences either, yet does everyone think they need to see therapists?</p>

<p>He doesn't HAVE the scholarhip money, it goes to pay for classes, I would assume not into his bank account, so it benefits him only if he is in school, not like a gift of cash....so it doesn't help is day to day living, does it....</p>

<p>3togo- do you think you were bipolar or had a huge drinking problem in school? do you think seeing a therapist to figure out what was "wrong" with you would have helped? or do you think seeing someone to talk about time management, study habits, work ethics, etc would have served you better and in a more pratical way</p>

<p>If you mom had come to you and said, are you into drugs, you want to move back with mommy, you aren't handling this at all, and add on top of that losing the $ paying for college if you get a C....</p>

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<p>CCMOM,</p>

<p>Hey I agree with you. I see this mom as no different than the dad who ran on the field and decked the 13 old who "late hit" his son. Both were trying at the wrong time to "save" their kids. Overdoing it.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, junior needs to take his lumps and straighten up his own sandbox.</p>

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<p>btw, my niece is a child's therapists, and I respect the profession and it does work for many, but I see different issues, and to jump to bipolar disorder, mental illness is leap, when I see a kid who was thrown into a big pool he wasn't ready for, and just let things get bad, through many bad choices, but he did TRY to do something this summer, that to me shows he is capable of trying to handle things, but doens;t necesarrily have the time, nor the desire to follow through and catch up...and with scholarship still available, hey, he is getting by....not the fantasy college experience his mom wants, sure, but does that mean he is spiraling out of control and needs to be put in a 72 hour hold, cause that is the only way to force counseling for an adult who is not a danger to society or himself....</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Both were trying at the wrong time to "save" their kids. Overdoing it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Come on Opie, there is NO comparison at all between the two. The OP is in no way intending to harm another person. The crazy "late hit" dad is a criminal. If he had run on the field to check on his own kid's condition, then he'd merely be overdoing it. But he assaulted a child! How can you equate that with the OP's (perhaps) overinvolvement & desire to straighten out her son?</p>

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<p>ah, now we get it...straighten out her son, and adult...how does a parent do that besides $$..that is all the leverage we have, sad to say...</p>

<p>maybe opies example wasn't the best, but the mom paying the water bill...mistake...and I don't think the dad meant to harm the jerk of a player, but instinct took over, very misguided, but protection of child over road common sense</p>

<p>If your child was knocked down after the play was over on the field in the same manner, wonder if we would all stand back...this mans son was blindsided when the play was over by a bully who happened to be in a football uniform- not that dad was right, not at all, but I can tell you you have a big 13 year old taking down a much smaller 11 year old out of play...</p>

<p>Once my D was playing soccer, this big girl, with two years on my D, kept tripping her during play, but off ball, the ref was not doing enough, so I ran onto field, and yelled at coach, and the girl, right in her face, you could see her chasing my D during the game just to knock her down, and the ball was not ont hat side of the field even...I was afraid D would get really hurt</p>

<p>I threatened to call game...I was furious...and we did eventually walk off of field...</p>

<p>I had three parents from other team come up to me, say they were sorry, and were reporting the player and the coaches for their behavior....I wouldn't have tackled the girl, but she was my size, much faster, and a bully who was trying to hurt my D on purpose</p>

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<p>I think everyone here who is focusing on drugs/alcohol is entirely missing the boat. It's not important what's behind the son's problems, it's important what approach kpm2c3 should be taking to help dig her son out of the hole. Some of you are advocating that she should cut bait and let him dig HIMSELF out of the hole. I would take that approach with the proverbial bum on the street, but not with my own flesh and blood, and if my parents had taken the same attitude I would've grown up a much more bitter and much less successful man. Many of us can probably say the same.</p>

<p>I think blossom's posts are founts of wisdom, and MallomarCookie is exactly right in saying listen to blossom.</p>

<p>I think that blossom's general ideas basically fall into this structure:
1) the most important thing kpm is worrying about is the health and safety of her son.
2) after that, she's worried about helping him get his life on track.
3) In addition, it would be nice if she could maintain a loving relationship with him, where he trusts her, and accepts some help while working towards more maturity.
4) Academics are a distant last here, need not be worried about immediately, and require a plan of action rather than just "shaping up and flying right".</p>

<p>Paying the water bill, while probably counterproductive in the long term, shows how much she cares in the short term. Same with the stalking on campus - bad idea generally, but the caring demonstrated is crucial. The suggestion to help pay for rent was the first thing that came to my mind, too - give him the breathing room he needs to concentrate on his studies while remaining independent, and try to salvage that scholarship. In the long run (if he makes it) it will save money - no tuition needed - and also build his self-confidence tremendously.</p>

<p>kpm2c3, i'd listen hard to what blossom says, and ignore everyone here whose idea of "tough love" is cutting off a loved one.</p>

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<p>I side with Denzera and Blossom. You need to let your son know that you are there for him no matter what. This does NOT mean that you will pay for tuition. He needs to understand cause - effect. If he flunks out, so be it. I honestly feel that some people need to fail and fall flat on their face in order to become tougher survivors. Maybe your son needs this.</p>

<p>Thus, I would not make your son homeless and would not reposses his car. I would, however, stop paying tuition until he learns to both communicate with you and shows more maturity towards his studies. Maybe he simply needs to attend a community college and start again. However, you need to try to keep the door open for communication and not shut him off at this trying time.</p>

<p>Frankly, I find it sad that so many scholarships require a high GPA such as 3.5 in order to maintain the scholarship. This puts undo pressure on kids and can cause the reverse motivation from what they were intended. A 3.5 in college is very tough!</p>

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<p>Why did I draw the comparison? because on the simpliest terms both were/are interferring with the process of the game/life when there are things in place to deal with it. Let the ref handle it.</p>

<p>If my son was knocked down in a game or life, certainly I'd be concerned But.......... I would sit in my folding chair and watch to see how he reacts to the adversity. It doesn't mean I like it, enjoy it or take pleasure in it, it means I'm parenting. That's a part of parenting, being strong enough to let your kid sort it out. </p>

<p>Running in to "save" him by what ever means physical or finanically ISN"T helping him, it's enabling him to be dependent on mommy/daddy to solve it.
In both these cases, the kid's lives are not in real danger, but the parent reaction doesn't fit the situation. </p>

<p>Did the mom in this situation ever stop to think junior behaves this way because he KNOWS mommy will be there? What happens to junior when mommy is gone? </p>

<p>You know the best advice I EVER recieved from my mom at that age wasn't the kindest. I was down in the dumps about life (college, girls, job) and mom just very simply said "I thought I raised you with a backbone." . Simply magical. I stopped whining and got my spine back and fixed my mistakes, by myself. Thanks mom. Had she stepped in to "fix" things, she might still be doing it today. Sometimes the best love is letting things play out.</p>

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<p>Denzera, thanks for the shout-out. I have a big family and there seems to be a self-destructive, impulsive gene which runs through it (skipping a sibling here and there) so I've observed some bad ways of handling trouble.... the good ones we all try to figure out by trial and error!</p>

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<p>"Thus, I would not make your son homeless and would not reposses his car. "</p>

<p>Not paying her adult son's rent is not making him homeless.</p>

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<p>I'm going to support blossom, denzera and taxguy. I don't think you should immediately assume that your son is a lazy bum as some are suggesting, especially in view of the fact that he was a national merit engineering major. He didn't get there by being a lazy bum. Sometimes going away to college can be the catalyst for breakdowns (including depression and drug/alcohol use or other emotional issues that have been dormant). I would want to rule out these things before I go the tough love route.</p>

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<p>I said he COULD be a bum, but I also said he was overwhelmed, under prepared, and had a new GF to boot...and that sometimes people screw stuff up, and ignore it....this kid, well has dones a number of things all on his own- from what I gather, he either had to leave dorm because it was a bad situation or he choice to move out with GF, while other kids found different situations...and then he had to work more with already slipping grades, but that slip started before the move...he signed up for summer classes, so he is capable of seeing the mess, just not very good at fixing it...the Op says he has to work so much to pay rent on apartment, and to me that is the sign of someone who can function...guess his other choice was to go home to mommy...</p>

<p>he is holding on o his independence for as long as he can the only way he can in a mess- some his fault, some he schools (dorm, etc), some the scholarship people, etc., but none of this was a surprise...I think the GPA requirement is absurd...my D is supposed to keep a 3.8-4.0 for her HS scholarship. I told her do your best, but not to kill yourself over perfection, we can make it work...</p>

<p>When my H came ot here as a 20 year old, laving college in Ireland, he dug ditches, painted, did some pretty tough work to survive, living with 4-5 guys at a time, becuse no way was he going home with his tale between his legs....maybe this kid is at that place...lose scholarship, go home and face everyone or manage to stay afloat one day at a time...</p>

<p>It could be so many things, but mom hasn't asked the right questions in my opinion...does this kid still want to do engineering, or does he find it mind numbing....what is the average gpa of enegineering students as freshman in that school...how many kids in the scholarship program last and maintain the GPA...</p>

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<p>"I thought I raised you with a backbone?". Uggh. No slam on your dear mama but for some of us with different emotional/political temperaments that would count as emotional blackmail and unecessary shaming. There is a place between tough love like >>to hell with you kid until you shape up<< and >>here oh my darling let me take care of that boo-boo and make sure you never understand the hard realities of life<<.</p>

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<p>emotional blackmail? not shaming at all, sometimes people wallow in self pity and need to be woken up...</p>

<p>not good for a 13 year old, but not bad words for an 18 year old</p>

<p>eever heard coaches, bosses, etc...</p>

<p>as for the OPs son, yes, he needs to figure out his life, but its HIS life, and if he is doing some drugs, or drinking, what do you all suggest mom do...he is paying his rent...he is functioning...I do not think drugs or over drinking is good, but unless mom kidnaps him, drags him home, puts him in a hospital, she can do nothing but be concerned</p>

<p>if son flunks out, he flunks out, if he pulls it off, he pulls it off...it is HIS life, not his moms...he is young, sure, but he is of legal age of independence and sadly the choices and consequences are all his...mom has little leverage, not fair, but reality...</p>

<p>and how do you rule out drugs and drinking, break into his house, follow him around...you can not force him to do anything he doesn't want to do, and saying "are you doing drugs" the first time you see him after a long time, not the best approach, btw...</p>

<p>he sees himself as a man, as a man who has messed up, for lots of reasons, but it his mess ups, and if mom wants any answers, she needs to back off some...if she starts nagging about therapy, something I would bet son doesn't think he needs, he won't ask for assistance in other areas, as mom already thinks he has emotional problems...and since these two don't trust each other already, using that approach is not a good one</p>

<p>She can cut off $ if she thinks it is going for drugs, but I am not sure what she is contributing now...other than that...</p>