Advice please - Flunking son dilemma of parental involvement

Parents Forum
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<p>I agree with citygirlsmom.</p>

<p>If the OP wants to break her back working 2 jobs to pay for an apartment for her S to live with his honey while his grades go down the tube and he loses his scholarship, that's her choice. It also means that what the OP probably feels is demonstrating love for her son is what I call enabling him to make poor choices and to shift the consequences of those choices onto his mom's back.</p>

<p>While the scholarship's requiring a 3.5 does set a high standard, I bet that such wonderful merit aid only goes to top students -- ones that the college knows darned well can maintain a 3.5 if they work up to their abilities.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I bet that such wonderful merit aid only goes to top students -- ones that the college knows darned well can maintain a 3.5 if they work up to their abilities.

[/quote]
Actually, I've read a lot of posts on CC over the years about schools where kids generally have a hard time keeping their scholarships when the bar is set high. This seems to be a bait-and-switch tactics that some colleges use --offering overly-generous merit awards that they know will be extremely difficult to maintain, with the idea that the number of such scholarships will be significantly reduced in subsequent years. The probabilities of a given student maintaining the scholarship are probably well known and factored into the overall financial ai budget: i.e., we know we can offer $500,000 in merit sholarships in year #1, because in year #2 we will only have to pay out $300,000, and by year #3 that will be down to $150,000. </p>

<p>I don't know anything about the university the OP's son is attending -- my point is that the award of money is not necessarily correlated to an expectation that the grades required will be easy to maintain.</p>

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<p>I agree that the grades may not be easy to maintain, but I would bet that since the college offered FULL merit aid -- which typically is a perk for only top academic recruits -- if the student works up to his ability, he could maintain the scholarship. </p>

<p>Working an unnecessary 25-hour-a week job and living with his girlfriend probably are a big part of why the OP's S has not been able to maintain the gpa to keep his scholarship.</p>

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<p>Calmon,</p>

<p>While your theory seems plausable, I really don't think it is a fananically sound one that a school would purposely do. Why? Overhead costs and future revenues. The cost of wooing a NMF is fairly expensive compared to the average student. The average student doesn't get wined and dined by administrators at some of these schools. They don't get the personal mail and calls. </p>

<p>These schools spend money on special housing and advisors for these kids. At least they did pretty much everywhere we looked. They offered extra services above and beyond. So spending so much money upfront just to force the kid out a year or two later makes no economic sense.</p>

<p>Besides where do schools get alot of money down the road? Alumni. If these kids make it through successfully with good marks, chances are they will also move into careers that pay well and then repayment (donation) can begin. One of mine hasn't left yet, but is already figuring when he can give them 100,000 to name a scholarship after him. It pays to get these kids and keep em going.</p>

<p>This situation is about the S getting to play house for the first time. As I posted earlier, the GF draws more attiention than studies because she's filling a "need" or an "itch that needed to be sratched" for the S. Everything the S done was to set up house with GF. Mom can't compete in that situation.</p>

<p>The only promising thing is the GF is leaving him, probably the best thing to happen to junior and he'll start to regain his priorities about his life. Maybe he can save it, maybe it's too late to get an education for free. Hey, no one told him he can't go back and pay for it himself, like most folks do.</p>

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<p>Let the car go. Don't take it away from him. He is in a lot of trouble and knows it, asuredly. I am certain he would love to find a way out of his trouble, but lacking judgment, doesn't know what to do. At this point he is in a hole and probably can't dig his way out of it, even with stellar grades. Grades are averaged. His low freshman grades constitute a drag on his GPA impacting his eligibility for the scholarship. He is enjoying freedom and socializing at this stage. When he comes to his senses he will have to attend a community college and apply for a slot as a transfer student at a selective school. It is hoped that, having gained some maturity two or three years from now, some school will give him another engineering scholarship. I talk to you about the car because I am sure he feels awful, even though right now he is not letting you communicate with him and he is not being honest with you.</p>

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<p>kcm, you said at one point in this thread that your son needed to work to pay living expenses because he had moved off campus. While he was living on campus, his scholarship covered his living expenses, right?</p>

<p>Are you and your son sure that his scholarship pays living expenses ONLY if he lives on campus? I am not sure of the situation in Arizona, but I know that at some other campuses, the amount of a student's scholarship is not reduced if the student moves off campus. The college or scholarship-giving organization simply contributes to the cost of off campus housing rather than assigning the money to the housing portion of the bursar's bill.</p>

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<p>Mom, you love your son, that is clear. But some of what you are doing is "enabling" him. There come a time that you have to stop financially supporting him. Yeah, it's "tough love." But it is loving him none the less. In loving him, you have to let him live with his choices and pay some of the consequences. If the car is paid for, I think you just let it go, let him have it and let him pay the insurance. If it is not paid for, you can "reposess" it or have the repoman do it. You'll have to stop paying the extra money for the "extravagent" apartment and expenses that go with it. Yeah, they may have to turn off the water and the electricity. But I guarantee that your son will pay attention when that happens. He loves you, but he seems to know that you can't say no. </p>

<p>I don't envy you. You care. You want to "bail" him out of his predicament. But he got himself there. It is time he learned just how expensive life is.</p>

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<p>Opie, I don't know about the OP's school, but I do know about National Merit. My son was also offered full scholarships + perks & stipends due to his NM status -- and that certainly didn't make him a top student or the type who could be counted on to do well at college. NM is a test score, "validated" by another test score -- a significant number of NM finalists are extremely bright, immature underachievers like my son, who coasted through high school with little effort but aren't ready for the demands of college. My son isn't the only slacker NM I know of -- and while I don't know a thing about the OP's son, I do know that many of the NM's who end up at colleges like ASU are there because they don't have the sort of demonstrated achievement and honors to get into elite colleges or qualify for substantial merit aid at more prestigous schools. In other words, many universities are successful at attracting the NM finalists, but that doesn't mean that they are getting the cream of the crop. Some of these universities do have reputations as party schools, and it is very possible that many NM Finalists choose to take them up on the scholarship offer precisely because the kids think they are going to continue to have an easy ride. </p>

<p>I am not trying to pass judgment on the OP's son; I am talking about my own and others I have known like him. Some kids are just too darn smart for their own good. If the only criteria for a scholarship is test scores, then a significant number of bright-but-lazy qualifiers will get caught up in the sweep.</p>

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<p>"but I do know about National Merit.</p>

<p>I have two of them. </p>

<p>One gets everything pretty easily (photographic memmory) and the other works pretty hard and gets just about the same results. </p>

<p>You implication was the colleges purposely set the bar too high to keep scholarship money. However, your example doesn't prove that point. </p>

<p>Your other examples are correct in the general make up of alot of those kids. While I would not agree with the slacker (I don't think that's really possible), I do agree with the aspect of their social and emotional levels. These usually aren't worldly kids. That's a different type of education altogether. </p>

<p>The poster's son got tied up with a girlfriend maybe for the first time. Thinking with your groin area has led to the downfall of many people throughout history. </p>

<p>This kid's not the first to toss a great situation away for regular sex. </p>

<p>We looked at ASU, they have a fine program. The problem for us was the size. Too big of a school for our tastes. Plus it's really, really hot there. </p>

<p>Partyschool? Only a small few aren't "party schools". It is unfair to blame the school for the fit. The proper fit is the families responsibility as there is a whole list of schools that offer full to nearly full rides for merit scholars. </p>

<p>Mine ended up at two small schools in OR. Both are places where they "fit". We looked at dozens of schools to get to that point. </p>

<p>We also differ (as I do with others here) as what consitutes "cream of the crop." Living in the beautiful pacific nw, someone else's cream might be pretty "sour" to us. Besides, you don't go somewhere to be given success, it's not handed out. Success is where ever you make it happen. </p>

<p>Besides my D school cafeteria was just on R Rays $40 a day on the food network as the best quality buy in the city. How many college foodservices can say that? :) They were able to handle the incoming class of 450 kids and parents a few weeks ago with excellent quality gourmet local foods in an outdoor picnic setting. It was that outstanding. Nothing run of the mill.</p>

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<p>Hi again, just thought I would let you know that I got a chance to talk to the GF last night and her thoughts are that he is way too involved in an intramural sport and it is cutting into her time with him, as well as homework. (although apparently he has not been entirely honest with her about his grades). She apparently has a key and comes over to wait for him and tidy up. So really, his priority at this time does not seem to be grades, although I am not sure whether this obsession with sports is a reaction to getting so many poor grades, and needing to succeed at something. I guess a sport is much better than drugs, but not much help in getting his grades up.</p>

<p>He is getting rides to work and sports practice, so I guess he is managing for now. I have wrestled for several months about taking the car, but I gave him lots of opportunities to do things to reduce insurance rates and maintain the car, and he showed no interest. So, perhaps he needs to be without a car for a while to see that it might be worthwhile to give something to get something. </p>

<p>Yes, the NM scholarships seem like a good deal. My S did get scholarship offers at other universities, but this was the best financially. Perhaps a smaller college like the high school he went to would have been a better choice, but perhaps he was just not ready to be focused on studying with all the newfound freedom. I don't know whether that would have made a difference. Also, as one post said, in college some LD issues might surface that were not a big issue in HS. It has always taken my S hours to write papers others could pound out in 20 minutes. This has always been a problem that was probably worse with college honors english courses.</p>

<p>Sounds like there are lots of other great colleges out there that NM kids are happy with. Glad to hear that.</p>

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<p>the plot thickens as the say....a guy and his sports....and now the GF is kind of irked....</p>

<p>your son has his priorities all askew....and all that will change that is a bit of a fall, sorry to say</p>

<p>I wish the school would drag him in and tell him what is what, but so far have let it slide...</p>

<p>It is frustrating to see a good kid mess up, but it is not the end of the world, but he is allowing some doors to close that may be hard to open, but if that is what he wants, their is nothing to be done</p>

<p>If he cared about school, the sports would be gone, at least until his grades came up and my guess is he is aware of that....</p>

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<p>"I wish the school would drag him in and tell him what is what, but so far have let it slide..."</p>

<p>The school may have sent him notices to come in, but since he's not going to class and is busy with a job, girlfriend and sports, he probably ignored the notices just like he ignored his water bill. The college isn't going to play detective and try to find where he's hiding out. They'll simply hold him accountable at semester's end if his grades aren't up to snuff.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Also, as one post said, in college some LD issues might surface that were not a big issue in HS. It has always taken my S hours to write papers others could pound out in 20 minutes. This has always been a problem that was probably worse with college honors english courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This happened with my son. Always had problems writing, but managed in HS. At college, it became too much and caused him to seek out counseling, which led to testing, ended up with LD and ADD diagnoses. His past high school teachers had a hard time believing these diagnoses as he compensated so well through high school.</p>

<p>I would encourage him to seek help with the counseling services on campus, they could help guide him in finding solutions or at least some options for him to consider.</p>

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<p>"too involved in an intramural sport"</p>

<p>That is kind of weird. How involved can you get in an intramural sport? They don't generally schedule 3-a-days in intramurals. Is he working out on his own or with teammates? A varsity sport can be all consuming in college, but intramurals??</p>

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<p>northstarmom, you are probably right about the notices....ignorance is bliss</p>

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<p>I read on the U of A site that the kids who made it into the Honors College have their own Honors College advisors. Any word from the Honors College?</p>

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<p>As parent of a NMS, you really have to look at the offers presented. There's alot of them, including some with perks to go through. You have to try and remember the "fit" ahead of the money. There are alot of places that may not give full rides for NMS, but they give a ton anyway. Alot of these are schools that most of us could not afford on their own. The offers often make the cost of school lower than a state school. </p>

<p>We visited both U of A and ASU to look at their programs. We really liked UA, but our D just really didn't want to go away from the PNW. The offers were fantastic at both schools. However, she didn't "fit" in the equation. </p>

<p>Instead she stayed closer to home albeit in another state, and has to work 4 hours a week work study on campus, she is tremendously happy to be there. The student body is around 2,000 compared to around 50,000 plus at the AZ schools. This is not a knock at those schools, students go and thrive there, it just wasn't for her. </p>

<p>Maybe the fit isn't right for him either.</p>

<p>Although I still maintain he's getting to play "house" and that's more exciting right now. You cannot subsidize his "house", if you do, he won't realize what he's choosing to do as the costs are apparent. </p>

<p>If he wants to wear the "grown up pants" let him, in all aspects. Maybe that's for him anyway. Maybe college doesn't float his boat, tried it and didn't like it. Maybe like so many, he'll just join the workforce. It's his choice.</p>

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<p>bottom line here - listen to Northstarmom on this one. no better advice I can give. Not only are her posts mature and thoughtful, she has been there and done that with a challenging kid and is helpful enough to be open about it. My own daughter is a great student and seemingly very mature on a fantastic academic scholarship at a top rated school, and all indications are that she is doing great, but don't think for a moment that I don't worry from time to time. None of us parents are immune from that...</p>

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<p>Well, another day has gone by without hearing from my S. I tried to call him at work, and got another employee who said that he moved to another office. So he is still working. I also heard from my mom, who is on the verge of panic, and is threatening to come here to talk to him, as she agrees with posters who think he might be depressed. She really thinks that he needs to get professional help. </p>

<p>After rereading all the posts that have offered such good advice, I am still torn over how much and what type of help I can offer if he won't talk about what he wants to do. Is there any way to get someone to talk to a counselor if they are trying to dig themself out of a hole? </p>

<p>In the course of this dilemma, I have shared this story with close friends and coworkers, and many have stories of relatives that spent entire years of school getting high and not going to classes, having to go home and community college, and reapplying to other schools and being successful later. Or just taking really hard classes and having to retake them several times. </p>

<p>So, I guess that I need to find a way to communicate to my S that, like some of you have said, there are many ways to get to a destination. This may not have been what he hoped for in the short term, but it will certainly make him more aware of what it takes to be independent. Just signing a lease is only the beginning.</p>

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<p>This may sound drastic--and I'm not trying to troll--but it sounds like some tough love is due.</p>

<p>If the car is registered to you, try to contact your son. If he still won't talk, send a certified, return-receipt letter to your son at college requesting the return of the car by a specified date and time.</p>

<p>If the car does not arrive, go to the university and drive it away. (I assume you still have keys to a vehicle that's registered to you.) If need be, bring a locksmith and proof of ownership.</p>

<p>When you get it home, change the ignition out so he can't just come and take it back. This action will seem drastic, but it will show him there are consquences for poor behavior, and he will probably respond verbally (even if not nicely) to the action. </p>

<p>Remember the ultimate goal is to show him that with privileges come responsibilities. Don't meet your responsibilities, you lose your privileges.</p>