<p>
[quote]
affirmative action only increases ill feelings towards them and undermines the abilities they innately possess.
[/quote]
I know!!! I mean, everyone always whispers about the tutors and easy majors URMs have. It's obvious they didn't get in based on academics. </p>
<p>Oh wait...that's athletes. My bad. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>warbles,</p>
<p>AWESOME post. exactly what I mean. Everyone at some point experiences favoritsm. We just need to understand this and move on.</p>
<p>Ethyrial,</p>
<p>I do agree with AA. I agree with this because I can't pick and choose what side of favortism I'm going to pick when the mood strikes me. Is it fair that athletes get into college (many times with full rides) because they play a sport? is it fair that woman don't make the same dollar for dollar that a man makes? is it fair that in some industries men are not the "ideal" candidate for a job? is it fair that in some industries woman are not the "ideal" candidates for certain jobs? is is fair that in some industries the "pretty" people are placed in the sales positions instead of a more qualified person, but the more attractive person can bring in the sales? I can go on and on about this. I am not going to get upset everytime someone other than "me" gets something just because of a hook they have that I didn't. This is life and again EVERYONE at some point has had favortism shown to them in their life, including you I'm sure.</p>
<p>To clarify: I'm not opposed to AA any more than I am opposed to precisely all those other things you've listed. And I'm certainly not against AA just because it "works against me," in the same sort of way that I don't support gender-based favoritism even though I'm a female in math/science. (Did you know that when writing NSF proposals, the scientist has to put in some political statement about how he's especially eager to mentor women/minority students or something? It's ridiculous!)</p>
<p>I do believe that my institution (and by extension, my own academic experience -- so I guess you could argue that this is selfish after all :-o) is academically weaker at the UG level than it could otherwise be because of AA, legacies, and other 'preferential' admissions factors. In my department at least, there exists a pretty clear divide between students who came in with strong backgrounds and students who didn't, and the "tipped" admits often fall on one side of that gap. I wrote a longer post on this some time ago; you can probably search my history if you're interested. </p>
<p>Anyway, I know it's largely futile to argue against all subjectivity, but I hope I'm at least consistent in my belief that academic merit should trump all in college, and qualifications/skill should count most in the workplace, etc. AA is just one piece of this many-faceted "favoritism" thing that I have a problem with.</p>
<p>Look, we can argue this out on whether or not this is racism (I'm not a URM myself), but there is one thing you have to realize:</p>
<p>It's not your college. Private institutions cany admit students however they see fit. If they want to favor students with last names beginning with "S" because the founder liked that letter, they can do that. (It's a ridiculous example, but the point is there).</p>
<p>As a non-URM, AA "works against me" (in the fact that it favors URMs). However, there is a case to be made for diversity. If almost every student on the campus was of similar upbringing and race, it would be boring- probably a repeat of high school for those from small towns with little diversity. </p>
<p>Some colleges will openly admit it- I was down in PA a couple of years ago and an admissions officer said this (I don't remember which private institution said this at the info session):
"We play favorites. If we build a new theater, we're going to admit more thespians in the coming years. We want to build a diverse campus and we will favor certain groups at certain times. "</p>
<p>I had to admit, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that. At least they had the courage to admit it.</p>
<p>However, there is a certain case to be said for the thread title: It can lead to more racism. Non-URM students may hold it against URM students b/c (as they percieve it) they got in for being a minority (even if said student has the grades). Students still have to be academically fit for whatever school.</p>
<p>Race, athlete, and gender preference come down to whatever the institution wants to implement. The ultimate fear (that I've heard from others) as a non-URM is that your application will be next to a minority with slightly lower grades and, because they're a minority, yours will be in the reject pile and they'll get an acceptance. It's irrational, and the most that you can do as a URM student is to prove in your app that you're unique in other ways.</p>
<p>Believe me, I understand. Good job Ethyrial for breaking some of the stereotypical lables. Your a woman and in the math/science field. Good for you. But, please don't let this sort of thing (which exists everywhere, whether male, female, urm, not urm, tall, short, blonde, brunette, athletic, non athletic etc...) get in the way of your dreams. It sounds like you have a lot on the ball. Good luck in the future!</p>
<p>my closing thoughts about this... Everyone has perks every once in a while. Enjoy them when you get them and don't be bitter when you don't.</p>
<p>Ethyrial, did you just say that the probably less than 100 or so minorities admitted to your institution have so drastically watered down the academic atmosphere? </p>
<p>and in addition you attempt to discount somebody's opinion because they are a urm. </p>
<p>i just wanted to state my observation. I'm part of the truce so im not giving any opinions.</p>
<p>Tyler, no need to claim objectivity while fanning the flames with a few choice statements...</p>
<p>Is it true that within the very small sample set that is my one department, the URMs are largely excluded from the set of "honors students" (as is the case with legacies, athletes, etc... ?) Yes. Do I think my own experience could be improved if there were more people on the track I'm taking, so that we could exchange ideas, do problem sets together, form study groups? Perhaps. I wouldn't know. (Anyway, it's not like this has stunted my academic growth or anything; I'm just opposed to preferential treatment on principle, and angered by the general observation that students quite capable of handling the most rigorous coursework at a research university are denied acceptance in favor of some who aren't. But this is a whole other discussion altogether.)</p>
<p>Now, did I ever use the phrase "drastically watered down," or generalize beyond my own experience and observations? No.</p>
<p>As for the second bit, I was earlier observing the irony that a beneficiary of AA was taking the moral high ground by attacking us for NOT supporting it "just because we're hurt by it." But Guitars has since clarified his position, as I believe I have also... I meant no offense by my previous words, and apologize if any was taken. </p>
<p>[MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread was closed quite a while ago. I see that near the end, people remembered their manners and tried to elevate the tone. For civil, factual discussion of this very contentious issue, see </p>
<p>for links to the latest official information in the first few posts, and for ongoing polite questions and discussion.]</p>