<p>You may feel that you didn’t have any disadvantages growing up, but ask a kid in Detroit that is about to be thrown into a classroom with sixty other students if being black and more than likely lower income has disadvantaged him.</p>
<p>^ to true emmele
I completely agree with you, thats what I’ve been trying to tell jazzpark for a while now.</p>
<p>Jazzpark: Did you check black as your race when you applied to college?</p>
<p>Frankly, affirmative action is fair insofar as we view it as a appropriation of funds and resources to communities and groups that are most in need of such social accoutrements, having been historically denied these at the unjust behest of federal and local governments in the past. </p>
<p>This notion is analogous to goverment programs that benefit poor rather than rich people solely due to perceived needs of the poor versus the rich respectively. The key word here is “need” as defined by appointed politicians, and hopefully by society as a whole. The former without the latter will never hold, but the latter without the former can be implemented all the same. But for “need” to be extendable to any, I think that one must prove that:</p>
<p>1) the government was either the aggressor or accesory to policies that have drastically led to detrimental problems still affecting targeted populations today</p>
<p>2) there must be a clearly definable need that supersedes that of more advantaged populations that does not logically derive through any evident means a wholly self-inflicted pathology of self-destruction and failure on the part of the targeted populations.</p>
<p>Indeed, if the two can be reasoned to be tru, then it should be left uncontested that the federal government has an obligation to do everything within its constitutional power to right this wrong.</p>
<p>The question should be whether affirmative action is the best method of righting a wrong that occurred generations ago and seems to affect one race more than any other. An argument can be made that this one race is actually regressing socially and academically.</p>
<p>“The question should be whether affirmative action is the best method of righting a wrong that occurred generations ago and seems to affect one race more than any other. An argument can be made that this one race is actually regressing socially and academically.”</p>
<p>This is not really the question. Even if we assume affirmative action is not theoretically the “best” method of changing the black community for the academic better (I switched the goal posts, I know, but who cares?), this realization isn’t helpful without suggest better alternatives that are practical and can be implemented right away. As of right now, there are other methods aimed at improving the general academic state of black Americans, but the true problems aren’t really fixable without widescale upheavl of other related factors on the government and family side. I perceive this to be a federal government problem as we must remember that until very recently black Americans were social and economic outsiders in their own country–and if the government will provide for the Natives, then there is no logical reason it cannot do the same for blacks.</p>
<p>Why would it be any less unconstitutional to favor the settlements of Natives over the social and economic revolution of other entrenched minorities?</p>
<p>“The question should be whether affirmative action is the best method of righting a wrong that occurred generations ago and seems to affect one race more than any other. An argument can be made that this one race is actually regressing socially and academically.”</p>
<p>Nice try at being subtle, but it didn’t really work. Black people are not the only beneficiaries of Affirmative Action and it’s illogical to believe that it is regressing them. Hispanics, Native Americans, occasionally Asians and all white women are beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. Considering that colleges have become increasingly female across the board it seems that white women have really benefited from Affirmative Action. </p>
<p>As much as people would like to link it to something that happened hundreds of years ago instead of now, in the present, Affirmative Action is more of a response to discrimination and racism than giving black people 40 acres and a mule for slavery. And trust me, racism and discrimination are very much present and while they don’t always appear in fringes of people in the south with white hoods, there are many people in the north and west wearing black suits that practice discrimination and racist beliefs. It doesn’t amend for slavery and isn’t supposed to. It was created to benefit multiple groups, and it arguably has. If you are trying to make the argument that blacks are “dumbing down” because of affirmative action, you are mistaken because most blacks who want to achieve something have been conditioned to know that they must work twice as hard for it. At the end of the day, a black applicant with the same stats as a white applicant may have the edge in college admissions, but when it comes to getting a job studies have proved that a more qualified black applicant will be passed over for a less qualified white applicant.</p>
<p>
You lose credibility with statements like this. Absolutely no one believes that AA in college admissions comes down to a black applicant with the same stats as a white applicant getting an “edge”. The stats are not close.
Support this statement with facts/studies.The employment numbers, HS school grad rates, single family homes, crime rates, percent of AAs in prison all clearly indicate the lack of progress the group is making as a whole. </p>
<p>The time for reparations are over with. AAs are going to have to learn to compete and succeed without a government imposed advantage. The handwriting is on the wall and the sooner people quit looking for excuses and start taking responsibility for THEIR success and choices the better off they’ll be.</p>
<p>You can’t take credit for sucess. Other people give credit to you. Society never gives us credit for sucesses but never takes the blame for our failures.</p>
<p>Again with the rest of your reply you are responding to the IDEA that Affirmative Action only benefits blacks and it is meant to be reparations. I can tell you, again–even though I wrote about extensively in the previous post–that neither is true. Affirmative Action is no amends for slavery and is not supposed to be. It is way to insure some equality in opportunity in a world where many think that minorities (including white women) are somehow inferior or lesser beings. If the government wanted to give reparations, they would have given it out 100 years before Affirmative Action was passed, when they ended slavery and promised reparations.</p>
<p>“Absolutely no one believes that AA in college admissions comes down to a black applicant with the same stats as a white applicant getting an “edge”. The stats are not close.”
So you are saying that no black candidates have stats higher or similar to whites. I know this is not the truth. But it is attitudes like this that present the need to continue programs like Affirmative Action. Until all people reach enough racial understanding, tolerance and acceptance to make objective hiring and acceptance decisions without the help of the gov’t, and until some of us no longer call Affirmative Action REVERSE discrimination, honestly the program should be in existence.</p>
<p>“Support this statement with facts/studies.The employment numbers, HS school grad rates, single family homes, crime rates, percent of AAs in prison all clearly indicate the lack of progress the group is making as a whole”</p>
<p>The “progress” on these things is influenced by other confounding factors beyond education, so the positive effect of affirmative action cannot be easily teased out by looking at all data as a group. Employment numbers for blacks, for example, are on a generally worse trend than usual because of the downward economy, and not necessarily because affirmative action hasn’t dampened the heavy winds of the recession (or vice versa as the case may very well be). It seems to me that if affirmative action didn’t, at least in the anecdotal sense, provide blacks with a perceived advantage relative to other groups, there wouldn’t be any complaining about it. </p>
<p>" Affirmative Action is no amends for slavery and is not supposed to be.</p>
<p>This doesn’t really make sense. If affirmative action isn’t amends for slavery then it stands on a tenuous base of overreaching suppositions on the nature of race and racism in America. Better to simply base it on slavery and the special exigencies it has created for the black community than more hotly contested they’re-all-against-us argument.</p>
<p>@Keile
“Better to simply base it on slavery and the special exigencies it has created for the black community than more hotly contested they’re-all-against-us argument.”</p>
<p>I definitely understand where you are coming from here. But when I say that, I am more so referring to the historical context and what Pres. Kennedy was intending to do when he signed that executive order during the civil rights movement, and not necessarily what I think it should be based on. I was just explaining that more than slavery, this was a reaction to the still present racism AND sexism in our society, that was particularly prominent at the time Kennedy signed the bill. Moreover, arguing that Affirmative action was a response to slavery is a losing game, because opposition can obviously deny it being that “slavery is over and has been over for the last 150 years”'. I understand that slavery still causes a lot of problems in the black community, but unfortunately (even though there is no precedent on how long a race is supposed to recover after 400 years of slavery) many people tend to not understand how an event that happened “in history” can affect a community today, so it is sometimes easier to address this issue relative to something more obvious in our society. Lol, sorry if this is long + confusing…</p>
<p>Mr. Desperate #68 muttered: “Society never gives us credit for sucesses but never takes the blame for our failures.”</p>
<p>No wonder your life is a prison. You never (to use your word) take simple responsibility for your own actions and always blame society when you fail. You are definitely in a prison. The tragedy is that you are also blind and cannot see that you hold the key. </p>
<p>Native Americans also receive a plethora of government AA and policies, and look what good it’s done for them. Their test scores are rock bottom (except for ours, of course), and their rate of alcoholism has skyrocketed. </p>
<p>All the sobering facts are right here: <a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007039.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007039.pdf</a></p>
<p>Maybe we should listen to successful blacks like Bill Cosby who say we can’t blame society for all our ills. If Koreans (and other Asians) can immigrate to this country without a penny in their pockets and without knowing English, why do their children become educated and successful and yet we still lie around blaming society?</p>
<p>Attitudes that I’ve seen on this forum would be appalling to my grandparents’ generation, who was a whole lot closer to slavery than any of us have ever been.</p>
<p>We’ve pointed fingers at every entity (government, poverty, etc) but forgot that our fingers also point inward. Damn, when do some of you get over your entitlement and do something that is guaranteed to work? Speak standard English, study your arse off, and don’t walk around with a 'tude, all of which will carry you a lot further in life than walking around feeling like everyone else owes you.</p>
<p>Deserved!!!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>…
Er, maybe because education is more valued in their respective countries?
Props for the poor example.</p>
<p>Exactly ^
I’m not sure about ALL Asian countries, but in china, you have to TEST into high school. If you don’t make it, you work to provide for your family for the rest of your life (unless you emigrate).
They DO value education more because it’s not available to everyone.
My friend from Peru said you went to school (high school or college, not sure) based on the letter of your last name, and it changed every maybe half generation.</p>
<p>Or perhaps Koreans and other immigrants are welcomed by their respective communities while in the Black community we have too many people pulling us down and attempting to undermine our hard work by claiming that they are not good enough or AA is the only reason for their success.</p>
<p>Asians have always been known to be “geniuses” so people don’t doubt their intelligence. “we” don’t want to work hard or stay in school (the black population as a whole and as seen by white America)</p>
<p>
Again…it’s not my fault…I’m just a victim.
Undermine? Please.</p>
<p>“Er, maybe because education is more valued in their respective countries?”</p>
<p>That must explain why (some) white people excel in the US. Get real!</p>
<p>The real enemy of blacks is: the black community. Some of our families do value education and would rather not be pulled down by the rest of you who produce the most unbelievable excuses. Do you have any idea how much racists who insist that blacks are genetically inferior love to hear excuses like this? You’re feeding their ridiculous assertions and are doing nothing to further your own people. You’re saying that we cannot compete with Asians or whites. Well, some of us can.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You know where education is not valued? In the black community.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So, the reason that so many blacks are uneducated is the universal availability of education? If we made education less available, that would surely help them, right?</p>