<p>As a black student, I agree to an extent with both Dbate and blu_g8orade. It can be argued that African Americans are usually at a disadvantage financially and circumstantially, and this may in turn be manifested as intellectual inferiority (whether it is or not). Thus, AA acts to compensate for this shortcoming.</p>
<p>Because I just go a C in Algebra II Honors, thats why I agree with Affirmative Action.</p>
<p>^ hehehhe i lol'd at that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I see no reason that the standards should be lowered specifically for blacks and hispanics. Sure SOME black people come from disadvantaged backgrounds, but looking at these boards it seems that many of the people who are accepted to top schools come from homes that make 100K+ (black, white, or Asian), which means people are not living improverished.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dbate: I cannot agree with many of your viewpoints. I realize where you're coming from, but I have fundamental qualms with your argument (mostly for very personal reasons that perhaps you have not experienced). I do not think standards are necessarily being lowered for black students, just that different standards exist (which you actually kind of hinted at by saying to xSteven that all races should be compared to only themselves). First of all, these boards are not at all an accurate representation of the applicant pool. The overwhelming majority of students applying to top colleges (regardless of race) end up qualifying for financial aid -- this to me says that many of the black applicants too require aid -- which leads me to believe that the majority of black applicants are not as fortunate as the few others of these boards. </p>
<p>I truly think that it's necessary for adcoms to change (not lower) their standards for many black applicants because they realize that many black students come from different cultures. I know that the black community as a whole does not emphasize the importance of education and thus kids are less encouraged to read, parents are less involved in their children's school life, and as a result a black applicant looks MUCH different than a similar white or Asian applicant [this has been the case in even my household and BOTH of my parents hold advanced degrees]. Additionally, as I said before, many black students are living on meager financial means (though few would go as far as to say impoverished) and this does have a major impact on what is possible. Lower income means lesser schools means lesser quality of education (9 times out of 10).</p>
<p>Sometimes it's a bit hard to swallow when I think about if my father had not been admitted to Yale 25 years ago. My entire paternal side of the family is from the very worst parts of LA (which have actually been gentrified a bit since then) and my dad went to terrible escuelas. So although he may not have been up to par with other kids applying to ivies at the same time as he and although he may have been admitted as a result of "affirmative action," he still ended up graduated cum laude from one of the top colleges in our country. Obviously Yale (as well as Princeton, Harvard, Brown's PLME, and Berkeley) saw some sort of potential in him when he applied and he reached it... eventually winning a full scholarship to attend Wharton!</p>
<p>Anyway, my point is that adcoms know what they're doing and are admitting the people they do for a reason. Isn't there some statistic out there that says that 90%+ of the applicants can actually do the work at these Ivy League schools? They realize that the benefits of AA stop at the admissions office and they select students that they genuinely feel can be successful in their learning environment. </p>
<p>AA as a whole is necessary because it can drastically affect the world (seriously!!)! Using my father as an example again, he's really served as a role model for a lot of the Baltimore youth in and around my community. They look up to him as someone who "made it" and many consult him as a mentor. Other black men (adults) look to him as well for guidance and they truly do respect him. I think that AA really does help further a community so I cannot help but totally support it.</p>
<p>I would type more but I'm tired and have to go review for calculus...</p>
<p>edit: that said I would LOVE to see some higher scores from black applicants <3</p>
<p>As an African American student myself, honestly... I don't even care. I should be able to pump out a few extra points on the ACT by studying a few extra hours a day like the next person. Of course I played the minority card in my college applications! But, I did prove that I'm just as qualified as any other student. If I get into my college, even just barely, I made it into the college just like the next person.</p>
<p>Seriously, I don't care about AA. I take advantages when given, however!</p>
<p>I think AA is only American. America is based on this belief that, no matter what you can move on up the status ladder if you only work hard. Doesn't matter where you're from, you can do it if you work hard enough. So, with that in mind, how is Affirmative Action wrong? It just picks and chooses from various lower-income kids and lower middle class kids and boosts them up. At least that's how it should be</p>
<p>
[quote]
"AA as a whole is necessary because it can drastically affect the world (seriously!!)! Using my father as an example again, he's really served as a role model for a lot of the Baltimore youth in and around my community. They look up to him as someone who "made it" and many consult him as a mentor. Other black men (adults) look to him as well for guidance and they truly do respect him. I think that AA really does help further a community so I cannot help but totally support it."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree, I would wager that your father is successful bc of himself and God and not bc of AA. AA at the time when i parents went to college was to redress past discrimination against minorities, bc well minorities were in a very different position as a group during our parent's generation.
I saw your stats from another thread and they are exactly comparable and better than many of the white and asian applicant. In that light why would there be a need to "change" the standards?
A prime example is Susan Rice, the new US ambassador to the United Nations, I was reading about her yesterday and in high school she was like one of us an her wikipedia page even comments on the fact that she feare that her academic accomplishments would be diminished because of AA, a comment that is also reflected by Clarence Thomas who also opposes AA.</p>
<p>Everyone needs someone. There is no individual who is totally independent upon themselves, progress is impossible that way.</p>
<p>I feel that AA is an opportunity that opens doors. The policy itself does not look down upon African Americans to create a sense of inferiority. If you cannot TELL we are still at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of excelling in classroom as a WHOLE. Life is all about knocking on doors and if there is a door wide open, why not take it? If we never had the opportunity people would complain and use "racism" as its justification. So now that you have the opportunity why not make use of it? Not everyone has the same capacity to learn! So for those can excel with little to no studying.. CONGRATS! make it worth your while, and for those who have to work hard take advantage of what you can.</p>
<p>maybe its my new york state of mind</p>
<p>Ok so I'm Asian and I was wondering do I get AA? Or is it just African Americans and Hispanics? </p>
<p>If it is, I don't see how that is fair. </p>
<p>If its just African Americans, I can understand, but if it is African Americans and Hispanics, then why are some races (except white) excluded.</p>
<p>I've been told told it only applies to African Americans and Hispanics. Not sure if its true.</p>
<p>I don't see why you can understand for African Americans but not for Hispanics.</p>
<p>It is my understanding that it goes to help any underrepresented/"disadvantaged" group. African Americans, Hispanics, the disabled, Native American, lower socioeconomic, you name it.</p>
<p>asians and jews especially are not underrepresented at most high tier colleges and infact are overrepresented...colleges may receive 10,000 asian applicants and only accept 400 while they might only get 1000 african american applicants and accept 400 of them</p>
<p>also its a proven fact that a high percentage of asians and jews end up going to some higher form of education...so affirmative action only seeks to provide a equal representation of all ethnic groups</p>
<p>I’ve struggled with this for some time, but ultimately I think that, at least right now, AA is very necessary, for poor, middle-class, and yes, even wealthy, URMs. Here’s why: </p>
<pre><code> AA is a way to remedy the racial injustice in society. White privilege (here’s an article on it if you aren’t certain what it is White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack ) is very alive today, and AA is a way to counter this, at least temporarily. You all know the argument from the economic side (blacks on average are poorer than whites, generally attend crappier schools, both of which lead to, on average, lower achievement and crappier scores, leaving the average black at a disadvantage in the admission process without AA), but here’s the diversity side. Blacks in America have a different experience than whites in America. There’s a diversity of thought that comes inherently from being a black person. This is where the concept of white privilege comes in, because if you are black you aren’t seen as a “rich black” or a “poor black” – on first glance, you are seen as just black. This tends to give all blacks a valuable perspective on American culture that would me missing at most colleges without AA.
Colleges aim to represent a diversity of thought and culture, and they help to achieve this by admitting a significant amount of URMs as a whole. I am not blind enough to think that the bar may be “lowered” ( think “changed” is a better word, because applications are seen holistically, not in a vacuum of grades, SATs, and ECs) a bit for some – but why is this a bad thing? It’s not as though colleges are admitting those who cannot do the work, as blacks generally graduate at higher rates than whites at some colleges (at least this is true at MIT, I confess to not being sure about this at other colleges).
Colleges don’t aim to admit the absolute best students possible, they aim to build the best class possible, which leads them to a different set of objectives than the former. Some people say AA in college admissions isn’t “fair” – reality check: college admissions in general is not fair. Is it fair that legacies get advantages? What about ‘developmental admits’? College admissions is a very subjective process – unfairness is built into the system. Even if it were entirely numbers-driven, it’s unfair to kids without the money to spend on private tutors, private essay-readers, and SAT tutors. It’s unfair to kids in terrible public schools without the resources and support to simply move to a better district or go to private school. Thankfully, colleges take into account not only race but economic situations as well, so it’s not as though every poor asian applicant gets in over a super-wealthy black applicant when both have performed comparably.
Diversity is needed to expose students to those different from themselves, and if AA were eliminated I am fairly certain that many schools would start looking very very homogenous, which would probably make any URM that went there very uncomfortable (I know I would be). I’m at a school right now that’s 73% white, 18% asian, 3% Hispanic, and a pathetic 1.45% black. I am the only black person in my Calc BC class, AP English class, hon. Physics class, and 1 of 2 in my AP Gov and AP Psych classes. It’s unnerving and one of my top priorities for choosing a college was the diversity of the student body – not only by race, mind you, but that was a big part of it. And there will always be rude, ignorant people who say things like “Oh, well, you wouldn’t have gotten into _______ college if you weren’t URM,” but that’s (IMO) a silly reason to base an anti-AA argument on. I mean, obviously these people suck, but is giving up AA really worth shutting these people up? Maybe some people have different priorities.
Obviously, the ultimate solution would be to completely eliminate the income gap, education gap, and white privilege as a whole that keeps a system like AA necessary. But until that happens, we will continue to need it.
And I agree with eating food that, all that said, I would love to see some higher scores from black applicants :)
Just so you know, I am very interested in any responses you may have :)
</code></pre>
<p>AA is needed because there is a huge gap in SAT scores. This is probably due to socioeconomic status. Some students cannot afford to pay for expensive SAT prep courses. This then leads to a much lower score since they are lacking the deeper understanding of the test. The SAT is not the normal everyday scholastic/academic test.</p>
<p>My opinion is that people on both sides of the debate must honestly and profoundly seek to understand the sincere concerns of the other side. The demonizing that accompanies discussions of race and AA immediately diminishes any meaningful discourse.</p>
<p>I'll just direct you to then-Senator Obama's Mar 18 08 speech on race. I was very moved to hear him direct all parties to consider the other side and why people feel the way they do. </p>
<p>My wife is caucasian and she is still feels genuinely hurt by ham-fisted policies at her college which designated certain slots for minority kids in over-subscribed classes. They were reserved because the school somehow felt those kids needed extra time to register for them or something. She and many other students did not graduate in 4 yrs because of this. Was the policy without any merit? I don't suppose so. But to ignore the collateral effects of well-intentioned policies does not advance any discourse.</p>
<p>For those who are saying blithely: "I support AA because of what I can get from it" -- you are doing a disservice with your selfish attitude, if I can be frank. If you or others get a helping hand, OK. I'm fine with that. But you only hurt those that follow you if your actions smell of "entitlement"</p>
<p>"But to ignore the collateral effects of well-intentioned policies does not advance any discourse." The students on this board are concerned that their non-African-American peers will believe they got in <name any="" top="" 10="" school=""> soley on affirmative action and not merit. Be honest. Will you think that also?</name></p>
<p>It's a 2-way street. I have anecdotal evidence in the opposite direction. I am not interested in anecdotes. I'd like to see a well thought out statement of problem and proposed solutions to the problem.</p>
<p>Not trying to sound offensive, but I, too, am interested in honest discussion. I just see a lot of closed minds on these boards, with people not even trying to understand either side.</p>
<p>silvermoonlock: Firstly I am not African American (if that matters) but an Asian who grew up in a predominantly urban school district. I rose to top levels of leadership in my school and ultimately I believe that's what got me noticed by top schools -- I was a Chinese student who was a leader in a mostly black school. I matriculated at an HYP. Afterwards, I've served in many NFPs and have and do work with many ethnic and social classes. I don't assume myself to be free from bias but consider myself to be blessed by many fulfilling experiences.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what issue you have with my statement about issues felt by American whites: "But to ignore the collateral effects of well-intentioned policies does not advance any discourse." That doesn't exclude in any way the anecdotes you would list nor would I assume in any way that it does. I'm merely pointing out the fact that I've found the best way to have people listen to me is to make sure I'm listening to them. Here, I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.</p>
<p>I do agree that high-achieving African Americans are daily being viewed through the lens of "he's here b/c of AA and not really b/c of his ability". I truly believe that that thought persists widely amongst the majority. Personally, I've been fortunate to know a full spectrum of people, both highly qualified and not, both receiving help and not. I've found it to be very helpful not to pass judgment quickly. In my career, i've worked alongside and below people who didn't have college degrees. I can personally attest I try not to "don't judge a book by its cover", a lesson that my wife and I try to impart to our two girls.</p>
<p>As for a "statement of problem" and "solutions", I posit that the "problem" is multi-faceted and has subtleties on many, many layers. I happen to think that ongoing discourse is part of the wider solution. I would be wary of a succinct "statement" and "solution". That's my opinion at least. </p>
<p>Finally, CC is a terrible place for moderate discourse on race. Way too charged. Over my dinner table with my wife's cooking in our bellies? Now THAT's the place to be. LOL, I'm in Michigan too!</p>
<p>CC is a horrible place for race discussion. That's an incredible statement when you'd believe the educated and enlightened frequent this board. Especially if it understood what AA is. CC-ers use it to mean "preference for African-American students". Those that do, are using the term incorrectly.</p>
<p>If the belief is that affirmative action is multi-faceted, then lets attack each side and discuss. I submit that some might think it is a multi-faceted problem because it is believed that members of different groups do not agree or understand the definition.</p>
<p>Groups include: Women, Men, Low-income students, African-American students, Asian students, Hispanic students, Causcasian students, middle income students, high income students, Aspergers students. This is not an all encompasing list, Students can of course belong to multiple groups. </p>
<p>The questions: What does Affirmative Action mean to you? Succinct answers without editorials. I don't care at this time if it is supported or not, the definitions would be telling enough. </p>
<p>Now...we have the beginnings of the different facets, or sides....or perspectives.</p>
<p>I love this debate. I don't think AA should be used a way compensate for slavery. That seems like a very weak cop-out to "try" to make things better. I just think that some natural form of AA exists because different races=diversity. That statement is not commutative though, and diversity exists in many other ways, but it does enrich the college experience when you are able to meet people of every color. I'm looking forward to that!</p>
<p>I'm just wondering, how much would it help you? or anyone here?</p>
<p>Schools don't have quotas for African-Americans or anything like that anymore. They consider race when the specific race is underrepresented at their school. That means that there is "affirmative action" for whites and Asians at HBCUs. Schools in the middle of the US with small Asian populations may be very willing to accept an Asian student with scores lower than their mean-- just as schools on the east coast are willing to be flexible to admit Native American students. </p>
<p>Schools want a diverse class. A male applicant can have an easier time being admitted to a liberal arts college than a female applicant and the female applicant may have an easier time getting into engineering school. </p>
<p>I think a more accurate way to look at AA is to say we all have attributes that help and hurt us when we apply to colleges. So, for one applicant, it might be: </p>
<p>African-American- helps
female applying to liberal arts school- hurts
needs financial aid- hurts
from overrepresented area- hurts
from good school- helps</p>