<p>"Think about who applies to colleges? RICH Blacks, RICH Latinos...VERY FEW of the poverty-stricken seemingly ideal "work-my-way-up" kids actually get to apply to college. In my neighborhood, there are class lines, and I have had the opportunity to befriend Hispanic kids on both sides of it (I am on the wealthier side)."</p>
<p>DanRod -- yea, I thought about it. Seems to me it can be argued that the MAJORITY who apply/attend college in the US are RICH WHITES.</p>
<p>What #'s = RICH in your mind? Just how many RICH Black and RICH Latinos are there in the US?</p>
<p>Think about who applies to colleges? RICH Blacks, RICH Latinos...VERY FEW of the poverty-stricken seemingly ideal "work-my-way-up" kids actually get to apply to college.</p>
<p>maybe you haven't been to a few of these colleges lately but there is a good cross section of the URMs are not Rich hispanics or rich Blacks. Most of the URMs at the Ivy which my daughter attends are products of the public schools, not elite privates.</p>
<p>"glenn1989, it gives URMs a chance against racism and discrimination, and what you just said was ignorant. If you really think that your simply a dumb***."
It recongizes people for their race, it is implying that certain people are somehow different/dumber. Color-blindness is the only way to go. AA makes too much of people's race.
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."</p>
<p>"The sad thing is, when people use the racism argument, they still assume that any minority that got into an elite school got in because of AA--which is racist in itself. "
I don't see what that has to do with the racism argument, and no I don't think that.</p>
<p>"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."</p>
<p>Take the speech in context of what was going on during the 1960's. Blacks did not have the right to vote, they could not ride the front of the bus, they could not be fed in many resturants, drank in separate water fountains, had to use separate restrooms,
in some states it was illegal to marry interracially, there were being beaten and chased from schools that they attended in prodominately white neighborhoods.</p>
<p>And theydefinitely were not being admitted in to some of the elite schools in the U.S. especially the Ivies which at the time were basically full of rich white men.</p>
<p>A lot of what Dr. King spoke about then has still not come to fuition, because there is still discrimination based on skin color</p>
<p>"Take it in context of what was going on during the 1960's. Balacks did not have the right to vote, they could not ride the front of the bus, they could not be fed in many resturants, drank in separate water fountains, had to use separate restrooms,
in some states it was illegal to marry interracially, there were being beaten and chased from schools that they attended in prodominately white neighborhoods.</p>
<p>And theydefinitely were not being admitted in to some of the elite schools in the U.S. especially the Ivies which at the time were basically full of rich white men."
I understand that, but it still has meaning for us today.</p>
<p>"Keypart "I have a dream" well that dream has not come to fruition yet (obviously), but AA is working to make it a reality."
Did you read the whole quote? "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." AA is judging by color and not by content of character.</p>
<p>AA is just treating the syptoms, not the root of the problem. We should look at why AA is needed. We need to destroy racism and improve inner city schools, then AA will not be an issue.</p>
<p>Its going to take awhile for the overall national mentality to cope with the end of Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans oppression. Its going to take awhile until they will willingly accept URMs and URMs will no longer be apart of this site.</p>
<p>People are not getting in to college on collor alone , especially at the Ivies, elite universities because it is a wholistic admissions process. While students may get a little slack on the SAT scores (and the SAT scores as a whole at the schools are evaluated in the context of one's environment) they have to bring it in with their grades, which is still the number one factor used in the admissions process.</p>
<p>"People are not getting in to college on collor alone , especially at the Ivies, elite universities because it is a wholistic admissions process. While students may get a little slack on the SAT scores (and the SAT scores as a whole at the schools are evaluated in the context of one's environment) they have to bring it in with their grades, which is still the number one factor used in the admissions process."
This is true, I have no problem with admissions people giving a little SAT boost to people who are economially disadvantaged.</p>
<p>"AA is a racist policy, it presumes URMs are dumb, and must therefore be given help."</p>
<p>Absolutely not. It doesn't presume they are dumb. if anything, it presumes that there are people out there who are bright and capable, but who (for various reasons) are not accurately measured by some of the "objective" measures used for college admission. AA isn't used because colleges think URMs are dumb. It is used because they think they are NOT dumb.</p>
<p>One of the more compelling reasons for AA has nothing at all to do with lower test scores and disadvantage and all that. It's the belief that everyone (including "majority" students) will have a better, more well-rounded, richer education overall if there is a wide mix of students on campus, in the residence halls, and in classes. That means people of various religions, ethnicities, regions of the country, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc. That means you want poor whites and rich blacks and middle class Mexicans and first-generation college students and legacies and international students and the list goes on and on.</p>
<p>"That means you want poor whites and rich blacks and middle class Mexicans and first-generation college students and legacies and international students and the list goes on and on."</p>
<p>The existence of poor whites and rich blacks in a college class is not going to be ensured by AA, which is based on race as opposed to financial status. AA should be reformed into a financial-based system if colleges hope to achieve the "diversity" (which exists in <em>mind</em> as well as skin color) that they claim to strive for.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I'm talking about something far broader than traditional AA. But to address you point, I think it's worth noting thatin the previous three pages in this thread I have seen people arguing that wealthy, priveleged students of color shouldn't be helped by AA. The way some students are talking, AA shouldn't help anyone but the poorest students. I find it troubling that we think that poor blacks have something to add to diversity but rich and middle-class blacks don't. EVERYONE has something to contribute--the trick is to achieve a balance of perspectives.</p>
<p>yes but rich and middle class kids, from what I've observed, receive more opportunity than those of the lower class. Feel free to correct me. Based on what I've said, however, students of color from the middle-and-up-class (or however you want to base the standards) shouldn't receive any more aid than white students on the same economic level.</p>
<p>"Absolutely not. It doesn't presume they are dumb. if anything, it presumes that there are people out there who are bright and capable, but who (for various reasons) are not accurately measured by some of the "objective" measures used for college admission. AA isn't used because colleges think URMs are dumb. It is used because they think they are NOT dumb."
Fair enough, but why isn't there "AA" for white kids they think slipped through the cracks or aren't judged fairly by objective measures?
There is a difference between economic AA and racial AA, economic AA gives help to the disadvantaged, racial AA gives help to people based on the notion that they need some kind of equalizing force.</p>
<p>Glenn, it may not have a title like "AA" but the best colleges have those mechanisms are in place. </p>
<p>They're called recommendations and essays and interviews. </p>
<p>These have always been in place to make sure that an applicant who doesn't look admissable by hard-and-fast measures, but who has loads of potential, has a shot after all. </p>
<p>I think where colleges have stumbled is where they tried to institute a shortcut--instead of using these measures, they try to automatically boost the kid from a rural area, the student from an underrepresented race, etc. Some affirmative action programs are like that (and were successfully challenged in the U-M cases).</p>