<p>This is probably the one place where this question makes sense. Does it annoy you that you seem to know more about the college process than your child's high school counselor ? Or some of their teachers?</p>
<p>I went to parents night. I tried to discuss the merits of having 4 years of math versus the potential downfall of a bad grade in that class dropping my daughter's class rank, which is dangerously close to the low end of the class rank needed for her to make it into our state's flagship school. The counselor had no idea what the the average class rank and ACT scores needed are at our flagship school. Wouldn't she need to know that to counsel students on their chances of getting in?</p>
<p>Then in an AP math class information session, a parent asked what score the students need to get to get AP credit at the average university in our state. The teacher didn't know. At all. Should he?</p>
<p>I feel this same sense of frustration when I talk to parents who have no idea what the FAFSA is, or what the early deadlines are at schools to get merit money, or to be entered into scholarship competitions at private schools. Basically, they haven't visited any schools, haven't even heard of some of the best liberal arts colleges in our area, haven't thought about college at all and will probably be amazed to see how much it costs . In the meantime, my daughter is doing her apps.</p>
<p>I'm sure that all the kids of these parents will get into college, and they will figure it out. I'm also sure that the poor registrar at our school will be going nuts on certain deadline dates trying to get transcripts out because these kids and their parents just didn't pay attention. </p>
<p>So, is too much information a bad thing? Have I educated myself about the college admission process to the point of being a snob? Will my child benefit because I know so much, or in the end does it really matter? Thoughts?</p>
<p>If there is one thing that I want my kids to learn from me, it's the importance of covering your own backside.</p>
<p>By informing yourself about the college admissions process, you've helped your daughter cover her backside. Make sure that she knows this -- that she can't always count on the "experts" to advise her, and that she definitely can't count on them to take the initiative to tell her what to do. She should be doing some of the research on her own, just as you have been doing on her behalf all these years (including right now, during the college admissions process).</p>
<p>You are not the only one to notice that a well-informed parent may be of more help to an applicant than the "system" is.</p>
<p>At the high school my son attended, requests for transcripts and recommendations had to be submitted a full month before the college's deadline for receiving them. At that school, a meeting was held during the second week in October to advise parents about the college admissions process. Parents who inquired about college admissions before that time were told that all would be explained at the meeting. </p>
<p>Since you are well-informed, I'm sure you see the glitch in this system -- some colleges have Early Decision deadlines of November 1, meaning that transcripts had to be requested by October 1 -- about ten days before the meeting. Thus, those parents who waited for the school to inform them eliminated all possibility of their kids applying ED to colleges with November 1 deadlines.</p>
<p>What I found interesting was the epiphany that the head of the guidance department at kids' HS had when the oldest child went through the college application process. Perhaps guidance counselors should shadow college applicants before they enter the work force--sort of like student teaching? You really have to go through yourself before you can truly understand it.</p>
<p>My experience with two high-achieving kids in a top public high school was that the academic experience was as good, or better, than what is available at the top privates. But where private school students get their money's worth is in college counseling.</p>
<p>My childrens' counselor was responsible for about 250 students. Counseling her top kids was a small fragment of her responsiblities. She helped us by processing the paperwork we needed, and she and we both were upfront that she wouldn't be guiding us in choosing where to apply, what to write in essays, etc. </p>
<p>I wasn't annoyed, but I was surprised that an otherwise stellar public high school would provide so little college counseling.</p>
<p>I agree.
I sit on a scholarship committee where we read a packet for each high school senior that is very similar to a college application packet. I am always amazed by the difference in quality of the rec letters written by private school guidance counselors versus public. It is a huge boost to the private school graduates to have their accomplishments summarized in such a detailed, thoughtful way.</p>
<p>I agree with Gotopractice and siliconvalleymom about the private vs. public guidance counselors rec's. I just hope that colleges do as they say and regard transcripts and scores before recommendations. I do not think my son's guidance counselor even knows him that well. :/
siliconvalleymom--You are on the west coast, I am on the east coast. This is obviously a nationwide problem.</p>
<p>I know exactly how you feel, Vderon. I cringed all last year as I watched my daughter's peers trip all over the obstacles of the college search and application process. I remember at Halloween telling one parent about online financial aid estimators -- she had no idea those existed, and didn't know what FAFSA was yet, and her kid was thinking of applying somewhere ED. </p>
<p>I'm good friends with the GC at my daughter's school -- he knows I know a lot about the whole process. He does a pretty good job, but has many gaps in knowledge (mainly financial aid). I was able to fill in those gaps easily, but many families don't. So yes, there were some disappointed kids in April.</p>
<p>My funny story: when we showed up last November for an "intro to college" workshop at school, my friend the GC took one look at me and pretended to leave, saying that I should just lead the session. And I could have, too! (Although I did keep my mouth shut most of the time.)</p>
<p>Then there was the conversation I had this summer with a good friend, whose daughter is now a senior. Even though I had told her, many times, that junior year was a really good time to visit colleges, they made other choices with their vacation time. So when she started saying that she just didn't see how they could visit all those schools in the fall, how they are running out of time, I had to restrain myself from saying "I told you so."</p>
<p>Honestly, it's like watching a train wreck happen right in front of you.</p>
<p>I feel your pain...I can remember many, many parents asking me why my D and I were visiting colleges so early in her Junior year, why I was reading up on FA and the admissions process, etc., etc. Then it came down to senior year, they were CALLING ME with their questions and problems because they hadn't done their homework. </p>
<p>It all works out in the end; my D was offered admission to every school she applied to, some with some serious scholarship and FA money. Those kids who did not start the process early, whose parent did not take it as seriously as I did, those kids did not have as many wonderful choices as my D did.</p>
<p>fortunately our district's guidance office staff were top notch and were able to give parents tons of good advice if they needed it. Starting jr year they had quarterly nite sessions providing info to parents of college bound students, all the info was spot on as well as answers to questions.</p>
<p>The one thing they did was have all applications routed thru the guidance office so that teacher/gc recommendations, transcripts and hs profile would be included with the application. The turn around time was always one day and they were able to compile accurate scattergrams for all the colleges our students applied to over the years. During one session handed out the scattergrams of the 10 most popular colleges which was a big reality check for a lot of parents.</p>
<p>I know our son's gc reviewed the scattergram data with him for every college on his prelim list much to his relief.</p>
<p>Even though there were only 6 gc's in his school of 1000 students, they had an efficient system for college applicants. And after schedule issues were resolved at the beginning of the school year, most of their time was devoted to the 250 seniors with college application needs.</p>
<p>I don't think the GC needs to be the expert in this situation. After 8-plus years researching colleges and following the admissions scene, it's not surprising that I probably know more about the process than my kids' counselors did/do. But then, they know far more than I do about grad requirements, scheduling, working papers, military recruitment, psychological counseling resources, homebound instruction, interacting with law enforcement agencies, etc. Each of the 7 GCs in our hs is assigned to 200-plus students, many of whom have needs other than competing for admission to elite schools. In a public hs, the GC's primary function isn't finely honing his/her college counseling skills.</p>
<p>Of course, the GC should have a basic level of familiarity with the college process. I'm surprised that Vderon's school counselor didn't know about entrance requirements for the state flagship. (I don't see a math teacher's responsibilities as extending to knowing what AP score is accepted for credit at a state school.) But I think many parents expect more than that basic level of competency - some, in fact, think they need to be guided through the process. Maybe GCs should be called something other than "guidance" counselors, which seems to promise a lot. </p>
<p>I think parents and students are responsible for this process. I see the GC as being responsible for getting materials in on time, writing an accurate, as-positive-as-possible rec, helping the kid with scheduling and grad requirements. If the GC has strong counseling skills, his/her opinion would be valuable in evaluating the list, but I'd never count on this. The counseling office and school library should have resources such as college catalogs, guides, standardized test review books, and computers available to kids and parents. If the school does more (and our school does), wonderful! </p>
<p>I feel people have themselves to blame if they'd spend between 20K-200K on anything without fully informing themselves first.</p>
<p>This is the situation at my former school, but most of the kids just want into the top 10% so they can get into the any state school automatically. If not in the top 10%, then hard to get into flagship, but most other schools you can get in, or there is CC. Very few kids look outside the box. Those have the hardest time, since the counselors have too many kids, too little time, and they focus on the majority - TX schools. There are teachers and counselors out there that do better, however. I mentored my kids with what I learned and am still learning on this site. I went to College info night, and the counselors talked ONLY about TX schools, and they had this in late September of the senior year, not earlier, so parents could plan. They did tell them about FAFSA, but since the state schools aren't known for good FA, this didn't matter to most. It's the public school syndrome. Not enough people so they have to serve the masses.</p>
<p>You make good points, frazzled. But since the college admissions process has changed so much, and kids are now routinely applying to 8, 10 and 12 schools, or conversely have no idea what they are doing, maybe the larger public high schools should take a look at how they can handle the influx of paperwork and questions more efficiently. And I really feel strongly that they should at least know the basics of admission criteria for all the state schools, and the deadlines. Maybe have a special counselor to moniter the college admissions process at the school?</p>
<p>The other issue I see is that many of my daughter classmates are not native to the United States, so their parents really have no idea how the process works, and many don't have the communications skills to seek out advice. It actually pains me that some of her hispanic friends think they "have" to go to community college, when they easily could qualify for merit scholarships and need based aid. I've become a bit of an evangalist with my daughters friends. </p>
<p>Not sure what the answer is. Just raising the question.</p>
<p>Good news here: Our excellent public HS has an information session for parents of JUNIORS so they will know what to do far in advance. Of course, by child #3 I stopped going to the sessions b/c I was used to the drill.</p>
<p>I guess I'm not expecting much from the counselors. They each have about 600 students that they are in charge of....most, but not all, are college bound. I know that we'll sort of be looking "out of the box" (DS has Asperger's Syndrome), which is why I'm on this board trying to ramp up my knowledge, rather than relying on the counselor.</p>
<p>My GC was not much help. To her aid, she did know a fair amount about UIUC's admissions deadlines (but most of our top seniors go there). I applied to a school with very abnormal admissions, and my GC basically said, "Do whatever needs to be done, then give it to me for a signature."...even for forms that were to be specifically filled out by a GC! I resented having to do much of her work for her, but, looking back, I probably did myself a favor by making sure that all the forms were accurate.</p>
<p>But since the college admissions process has changed so much, and kids are now routinely applying to 8, 10 and 12 schools, or conversely have no idea what they are doing, maybe the larger public high schools should take a look at how they can handle the influx of paperwork and questions more efficiently. And I really feel strongly that they should at least know the basics of admission criteria for all the state schools, and the deadlines. Maybe have a special counselor to moniter the college admissions process at the school?</p>
<p>Statistically, only a small number of the total number of high school graduates apply to more than one or two schools. I am with Frazzled; I do not think it is reasonable to expect a public HS guidance counselor to be on top of the selective college application process. </p>
<p>High schools should be responsible for getting kids to the finish line, and for supplying students with the required transcripts, recommendations and test scores required for a college application. They should have a resource library of post-high school opportunities available (college, vocational training, military, etc) and they should carve out some time each year to expose the students to these resources. Ultimately though, I think it is up to each family to educate themselves about college admissions.</p>
<p>Put it another way--let's say the schools DID go out of their way to tell your kids about HYPS and other private opportunities and your child fixated on a school offering no merit aid and completely out of your financial reach? I'd be steamed that the school counselor overstepped his bounds and influenced a decision that I believe should be make within our family.</p>
<p>One more thought about your observation that the counselor seemed unprepared to answer questions about state admissions requirements: was your question posed at a "college information night" or similar for college bound students, or was it a general "back to school night."</p>
<p>If the latter, I think it is unreasonable to expect them to address questions beyond "when is college night" or "what help is available for college applications." </p>
<p>Requirements change year to year, and I would never expect anybody to know them off the top of their head.</p>
<p>I don't know what guidance counselors do all day long, every day. While I like ours very much, they don't seem to spend much time with each individual. Of course, this could be partly because they each have a case load of about 400 students, along with other duties. Maybe if we want better counseling services, we need to get more staff into the budget.</p>
<p>It's not just a problem at publics. A good friend's D who attended a pricey all-girl Catholic was being discouraged from applying to Sarah Lawrence. The GC was laying a guilt trip on her about the high cost. The parents quite comfortably & willingly pay full price. The parents do very well & the girl is an only child. The most annoying part is how PERFECT the SL fit is for this girl. Really, she is the poster child for SL, and because she didn't want to burden her parents, she was almost not considering applying. Sometimes these GCs have odd ideas and strong biases that can really undermine the kids in their charge.</p>
<p>My niece is a GC in a large public HS. She spends a very small percentage of her time on college counseling/admissions, and most of that is devoted to making sure the paperwork packages get sent out. Meaning no disrespect, I doubt she knows SL exists, despite the fact that it's less than 100 miles distant from her HS. Since she's family, I'm going to assert that she's one of the better GCs at her HS.</p>
<p>The fact of life here is that there are some good GCs and some, um, less good ones. For proof all one needs to do is tally up "posts" and "reads" on CollegeConfidential forums. Students who get the good GCs are truly blessed IMHO. Unfortunately, the student generally doesn't get to choose the GC.</p>