another campus death due to alcohol poisoning

Parents Forum
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<p>I don’t disagree, except for this: As parents, we cannot hold colleges responsible for our adult children’s drinking. We should stop trying to hold other people responsible for our children’s behavior. Only they can make these choices, but what they saw growing up will have an effect. There’s too much evidence to even bother citing this.</p>

<p>But, holding colleges responsible for being in a ridiculous position is not the answer. By the time a kid is 19, you are not going to convince them they should not have a beer or a glass of wine. You just aren’t. Not as their parents, and not as a college administrator. And zero tolerance rules have done nothing to make it stop.</p>

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<p>As to whether the colleges should do more, of course they should. </p>

<p>It is not because there is no parental obligation to educate one’s children before they go to school, or because the universities and colleges are legally liable to do so. It is a matter of morals. If your job is to educate young people, and those young people are dying due to alcohol while attending the educational institution, isn’t it the proper thing to do to try to prevent it?</p>

<p>It does not matter that parents “should” have done this or that, we all know that despite really great efforts on the part of parents, things go wrong with their kids. I think that people who think that the education ends in the home are not helping. THis type of attitude derails the good that could be done for those who need it. If your kids are not at risk, great, but why not help those who are at risk? </p>

<p>I also think that people may not realize how their words sound, to people who don’t necessarily hold their same opinion. To me, all the talk of how underage drinking and fake ids not being so bad etc etc. came across from some of the posters (on another thread) as approving and supportive of both. If praise is too strong a word for you, what-ev-er. </p>

<p>I am not sure how much of the drinking to death problem comes from what you see at home, or what you did in HS. I would venture to say that most kids that drink did not see their parents drink themselves into a stupor. My own father did not drink at all because he was the son of an alcoholic, and he had seen his father drink himself into a stupor.</p>

<p>On a personal level, I am very angry at any parents who knowingly serve alcohol to minors in their home, or knowingly allow alcohol to be consumed by minors in their home. The HS kids who are getting drunk are not learning to “drink responsibly.”</p>

<p>However, in all of this, the ad hominem arguments do not advance the discussion. It doesn’t matter whether any particular person ever did something their parents told them not to do. It doesn’t matter whether anyone individually thinks the drinking age is too high or whether government should regulate this conduct. Laws exist in society to provide the greatest good for the greatest number of people. (I didn’t make this up - check out utilitarianism as the basis for much of our own government) If the facts don’t back it up, then the law should be changed. I haven’t seen a fact offered that shows how lowering the drinking age will reduce deaths due to alcohol poisoning, but perhaps there are such facts. I think a lot could be done from the public health perspective in doing a broad study of college excessive drinking, binge drinking etc. to see if causes can be identified.</p>

<p>FWIW, monydad, I liked your post above.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying education ends in the home. However, I AM saying that by the time a kid reaches college age, it’s really too late. You yourself just pointed out that “despite really great efforts on the part of parents, things go wrong with their kids.” Well, honestly, despite really great efforts on the part of society, things go wrong with life. People make mistakes. Kids have always done idiotic things.</p>

<p>We can either decide that 18 year olds are NOT adults, have colleges act in loco parentis, like boading schools, and have parents be legally and financially responsible for their offspring until whatever age we deem adult, by whatever measure we choose, or we can understand that if we send them out “as adults” they are going to do adult things. In our culture, adults drink alcohol. I think we are deluding ourselves if we think we can have it any other way.</p>

<p>You are free to disagree. But I don’t serve alcohol in my house, don’t have it there. I’m just not willing to say it is “our” responsibility if your kid chooses to binge drink. At some point, the adults become responsible for their own decisions. </p>

<p>What do you suggest we do? What do you think colleges should do?</p>

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Not only have I not seen it, but I’ve seen everything that points to the contrary. (Doesn’t anyone here ever read mini’s links?)</p>

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<p>“On a personal level, I am very angry at any parents who knowingly serve alcohol to minors in their home, or knowingly allow alcohol to be consumed by minors in their home.”</p>

<p>[Note to self: do not invite anothermom2 for Passover.]</p>

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<p>I’ve read mini’s links. They are actually related to high school kids, for the most part. </p>

<p>Perhaps we should simply keep teenagers at home until they reach the age of majority.</p>

<p>There is less binge drinking and less death from alcohol overdose in Canada. Binge drinking is the big danger for the college students who drink.</p>

<p>Here is some research related to college students, not 16 year olds:
<a href=“http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/1College_Bulletin-508_361C4E.pdf[/url]”>http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/1College_Bulletin-508_361C4E.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>For example, mini’s misleading information frequently cites the “fact” that the drinking problem has gone down since the 21 law. NOT TRUE:</p>

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<p>This is the government study on the issue. It’s comprehensive, long and involved, but it does compare countries, as well.</p>

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<p>“I haven’t seen a fact offered that shows how lowering the drinking age will reduce deaths due to alcohol poisoning, but perhaps there are such facts. I think a lot could be done from the public health perspective in doing a broad study of college excessive drinking, binge drinking etc. to see if causes can be identified.”</p>

<p>I’m actually going to a prevention research meeting tomorrow afternoon, with a national researcher based out of the University of Washington, who is reporting on the latest on evidence-based research. There is tons.</p>

<p>The Monitoring the Future Survey - Part II, that I’ve previously cited, provides data on 18-21 year olds, both in school and not, from 1975-2009. That’s one of the ways we know about the extraordinary effectiveness of raising the drinking age, not just for those under 18, but for those over.</p>

<p>And, yes, it is true - since 1999, things have gotten worse. (Having said that, I know my friends at the National Behavior Risk Factor Survey at the CDC will scream, 'cause their data doesn’t show it.)</p>

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<p>Very few of these studies isolate for only full-time college students–especially those “away” or living at the college. I think the college drinking experience is somewhat unique and unlike that of working young adults of the same age. Many if not most college students don’t need to drive to go to parties or bars. They are in walking distance or a cheap bus/cab ride. I also think fewer college drinkers carry that habit through life at anywhere near the rate they might binge in college or at the rate of non-college drinkers. It’s something you do and then put away in the memories bank and move on to work and other things. At least that’s what I have seen to a great extent. It’s the been there done that feeling. No need to replay it.</p>

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<p>This would really interest me. The most comprehensive research currently being done, outside the Yale, Connecticut University studies, is being done at the University of Washington. I’d be very interested to find out what they are finding, though I know they are still in progress.</p>

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<p>Many of the parents on this forum seem to be unable to distinguish between what is “reality” and what is “praising” or “condoning” certain behavior.
The reality is that many, many college (and probably high school) students have fake IDs. I doubt that many parents are thrilled with this fact, and many probably don’t even know.</p>

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<p>I disagree with this logic. It is simply NOT the same behavior. Having a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with the BBQ is not remotely the same behavior as chugging shots along a bar to group chants, drinking six beer in a row to get a buzz, or guzzling from the bottle of Lonesome Charlie before heading to a party.</p>

<p>Indeed, if the issue were solely one of role modelling, we’d have nothing to worry about. Kids would (most likely) see responsible alcohol consumption, not binge drinking to get close to passing out. They aren’t modelling their parents at all, they simply find it easier and more fun to drink at parties and once drunk, lose their judgment to limit their intake.</p>

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<p>Except that you are incorrect: </p>

<p>From my earlier link:

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<p>I’m not saying parents’ shouldn’t drink in moderation. All I’m saying is that adults who come from homes where adults drink alcohol drink alcohol. It’s obvious AND the studies bear it out. That we expect colleges to be able to accomplish something parents cannot is preposterous.</p>

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<p>This topic has hit close to home on CC in the past … Lucifer11287 was a poster who defended and advocated drinking and partying as long as the person understands their limits and stays in control …
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Lucifer died of alcohol poisoning.</p>

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<p>poetgrl, how do you explain student binge drinkers who come from nondrinking families? I believe peer pressure and wanting to fit in has far more to do with the equation than the behavior modeled at home. </p>

<p>I do agree with you that colleges shouldn’t be held responsible for the irresponsible choices some students make.</p>

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<p>See my post #59. I"m tiring on the subject.</p>

<p>My real point is that college students either are adults or they are not adults. To somehow have this system which parents are holding responsible for their adult childrens’ decisions is not feasible. So, either change the laws, change the age of majority, or continue to believe that college administrators are there to police drinking practices.</p>

<p>The reason I brought up the parent’s thing, which seems to be bugging people (imagine how the college administrators, who may not have even met these students must feel), is because I hear all sorts of stuff all over this board about colleges and drinking, and it starts with the parents.</p>

<p>Past a certain point? They are responsible for their own decisions and choices. The students, that is.</p>

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<p>Many alcoholics do. The odd thing about a post like that is that it will upset the parents, but the immortal students, will think, “that could never happen to me.” It’s tragic, but true.</p>

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<p>There’s a whole other piece to this tragedy that I find truly disturbing. While I acknowledge that exactly what the 6 pledges did that night has not been officially stated, as mentioned by CollegeAlum & several other sources, there may have been/probably were some outrageous things done by the pledges. As difficult as it is for me to imagine that a group of civilized 18 year old students could really tie a brother up & pour alcohol down his throat, for reasons I can’t go into, unfortunately I believe it to be true. While I am sure that no one intended for someone to die that night, and I know that alcohol blurs rational thinking, I can not imagine what kind of sadistic barbaric kids the pledges are.</p>

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<p>I’d be interested in a study of the occurrence of alcohol poisoning in schools with major non-drinking entertainment programming on the weekend versus schools that don’t offer those kinds of programs-- because I think that’s certainly something schools could be doing to help. I am 21 and pretty much never drink, don’t want to, don’t like it, have no interest in it, and sometimes it’s still hard not to do it because when your friends from class invite you to go out to a party where there will be nothing to do but get bombed, and you say no, they may never invite you out again-- and if you say no a second time, forget about it. It is really hard to maintain friendships with heavy drinkers when you are not a drinker when there aren’t lots of other social opportunities to meet a wide variety of people. At my school we have HUNDREDS of things going on every weekend that are non-drinking where you can go to meet other kids who don’t drink, and it makes it much easier to establish a non-pressuring community.</p>

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<p>This is something I’ve studied some. I think that the kids who get sucked into these things are victims, too. In groups that do these kinds of things, it’s glorified-- it’s about building brotherhood, it’s a rite of passage, the kids are desensitized and they blindly go along with it because they worship the fraternity and its traditions-- they stop realizing what they are doing and do things they would never do were it not for the groupthink mob mentality. That is not to say they are not 100% culpable for their actions, because they most certainly are, but I do think it’s possible for good kids to get sucked into that kind of a situation, and I think the problem runs deeper than character flaws on an individual basis.</p>

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<p>It’s also not the same as drinking in excess as part of a fraternity pledging ritual. That’s a situation that kids don’t learn about at home.</p>

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<p>“…it’s about building brotherhood, it’s a rite of passage, the kids are desensitized and they blindly go along with it because they worship the fraternity and its traditions-- they stop realizing what they are doing and do things they would never do were it not for the groupthink mob mentality.”</p>

<p>I’ve also studied some (those psychology courses again, I did a paper relating to how whole nations of people can come to engage in mass atrocities), and I think you’re right.</p>

<p>As I understand it, this thing they did was some sort of tradition of this frat, or maybe many frats, as part of the pledge process. These kids didn’t invent it. So they probably thought this is what the frat has "always’ done, and presumably if it was very dangerous the frat wouldn’t have always been doing it, or expecting them to do it now. So while they may have had some misgivings while they were doing it, or seeing the guy passed out or whatever, they may have had the presumption that it was all ok and nothing serious was likely to happen, because the frat had always done it, and they wouldn’t be telling them to do something that was really dangerous.</p>

<p>Realistically, what experience do you think these kids had with alcohol poisoning, most of them had probably just been drinking for a few months themselves, they were freshmen pledges. Some recent experience indicates that when kids start experimenting with alcohol they have no idea how much is too much, or the impact various amounts can have.</p>