<p>mathyone,
I wasn’t trying to miss the point, I was trying to understand what incident you were talking about. I didn’t see anything posted about a “Students 4 Rape” group that you described. If you are talking about the “no means yes…” sign, well, I was saying you need to delve into the facts of that case in order to determine whether the university can or should take any action and whether the sign was “sanctioned” or representative of the fraternity versus say, something posted by a couple of guys in their off-campus apartment at an “unsanctioned” party. Its fine if you don’t was to respond to me, as I feel like it is you who are constantly missing the point and it is tiring.</p>
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<p>I didn’t see that at all. Sometimes people on this site read into posts what they want them to say, and not what they actually do say.</p>
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<p>I don’t think you’ve seen the movie. If you have, you ought to see it again. Animal House was not the uptight, uber-white UT right wing guys who would yell at guys with long hair. Quite the reverse.</p>
<p>Regarding the discussion of MIT frats above, I spent a lot of time at one back in the day, and as I said earlier, never saw or heard of any hazing, raping, assaulting, or misogyny there. THey were generally just really nice guys. I <em>did</em> hear the guys talking disapprovingly about an instance of hazing at another house, which had gotten in major trouble as a result. I had a female friend who lived at Number 6, which I agree wasn’t really a frat, although it was loosely referred to as one.</p>
<p>I watched Animal House again recently. While the Alpha House is not the uptight house with brutal hazing, its members nevertheless commit numerous actions that are really bad (and that I didn’t remember from before). I think our ideas of what is acceptable as “boys will be boys” behavior has changed, and some fraternities at some colleges have not caught up. It appears to me that some of them are self-perpetuating machines for concentrating just the kinds of men most likely to engage in bad behavior.</p>
<p>Still love the lines from Animal House. H had occasion to say “Seven years of college down the drain!” just the other day. </p>
<p>Consolation, from what I remember of the worst of the UT fraternities in the '70s, “uptight” does not fit at all. They were wild, breaking all the rules, but were elitist and racist at the same time. They were more like Roman elites than Victorian elites.</p>
<p>I’ll throw in a story. One Saturday morning, while I was driving to the library, a young woman coming out of a frat house waved somewhat frantically at me. I stopped to ask what was the matter, and she pleaded with me to give her a ride to a store, which I did. The frat had hired her as a stripper (and maybe more, but I didn’t ask) the night before and the frat boys had unceremoniously kicked her out this morning without giving her a ride or even access to a phone (before cell phones) to call a taxi.</p>
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<p>Unless you are referring to Nero in particular, I don’t think this phrase makes any sense.</p>
<p>Roman decadence began and ended with Nero? Really? So Caligula, Domitian, Commodus, Caracalla, and Elagabalus don’t count?</p>
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<p>Actually, I meant Caligula instead. Nero was crazy and known for his capricious violence, but I’ve never heard of anything about loose sexual mores. Also, my impression is that your contrasting the cultures of the Victorian patrician class against the ancient Roman one. Even under Caligula’s reign, I hardly think there was a <em>culture</em> of sexual permissiveness. It was just that Caligula had no restraint whatsoever.</p>
<p>Suetonius writes about Nero’s loose sexual mores. Whether his history has much to do with facts is debatable. Maybe you could look at the poets to think about (upper class) sexual permissiveness. Maybe Catullus?</p>
<p>ETA: republic poet, so too early, I can’t think of any later racy poets, but surely they exist</p>
<p><a href=“3 Sexual Assaults Reported On Same Day At UC Berkeley, Fraternity Member Arrested - CBS San Francisco”>http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/10/03/2-sexual-assaults-reported-at-uc-berkeley-fraternities-among-3-assaults-reported-on-same-day/</a></p>
<p>Another death. They just keep piling up.</p>
<p><a href=“University of Alabama student from Texas found dead in fraternity house, cause of death not released - al.com”>University of Alabama student from Texas found dead in fraternity house, cause of death not released - al.com;
<p>Do you think a college student somewhere in the US was found dead in their room in a dorm or at home or an apartment yesterday? You don’t even know why this poor kid died yet. Maybe you should wait until you find out what happened.</p>
<p>By the way, have you been back to that Brown thread you started to correct the misinformation you posted there, you know about how another girl supposedly accused the probably-innocent guy of rape?</p>
<p>@consolidation I am well aware of the overwhelming evidence, in aggregate, that there is a significant rape problem on college campuses, and clear evidence that people turn up dead or raped at fraternities at a much higher rate than they do in other parts of campus, and rarely has anyone held accountable until now. </p>
<p>Fortunately, there are people like you who will step up to defend the actions of these entitled dregs of society so they can continue their awful behavior.</p>
<p>Regarding Brown, the facts are that the University panel found this man “responsible” for sexual misconduct. Unsurprisingly, you appear to have made a different decision.</p>
<p>My point is that the winking at this behavior needs to stop, and there needs to be accountability. Times have changed, and the frequency of these deplorable incidents has to fall.</p>
<p>@Much2learn It is consolation, not consolidation. </p>
<p>I never defend the actions of rapists or hazers, or approve of binge drinking. </p>
<p>Regarding Brown, the fact is that you choose to ignore any information that does not fit your agenda.You have repeated outright untruth when it suits you, and you refuse to admit it, or even acknowledge that your source was faulty. </p>
<p>I fully agree that rape and hazing and binge drinking should never be winked at. </p>
<p>I am far from a kneejerk defender of Greek organizations. In fact, I have stated numerous times in these forums that I would be happy to see them all shut down.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I am aware from personal experience that everything is not as you would have us believe, and I have a constitutional distaste for witch hunts and those who conduct them.</p>
<p>BTW, I’m surprised you missed this one:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1693276-student-accused-of-rape-arrested-by-police-and-prosecuted-by-district-attorney.html#latest”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1693276-student-accused-of-rape-arrested-by-police-and-prosecuted-by-district-attorney.html#latest</a></p>
<p>Regarding Brown, the issue is that many people have argued on cc that the process should not be a witch hunt, and we should all wait and see the result of the process. Then the student is found “responsible,” and then you argue that they got it wrong. There is never really anyone who is responsible. </p>
<p>Honestly, I do not care about the specific cases. People love to argue about each individual case endlessly. To me it is pointless because none of us really knows for sure what happened in most of these cases. What I do care about is the never ending drum beat of these cases and the astonishing lack of consequences in the significant majority of cases. Students have learned that they can commit these crimes with impunity. Especially if they are in a fraternity where there is a “code of silence” or if they are athletes.</p>
<p>You can argue details of specific cases and I really do not care. It is clear to me that there are a significant number of rapes and other evil deeds occurring on college campuses, and that a disproportionate percentage of them are related to alcohol and frats. Furthermore, it is clear that Universities have been loathe to proactively address this situation and hold offending individuals and organizations accountable. </p>
<p>Universities need to raise the level of accountability, and I am hoping that more students will stop using the campus police and begin using real police. Furthermore, I think if the outsized misbehavior among fraternities can’t be modified away, then colleges should sever ties with all of them. Change or be removed from campus. I don’t know if that means becoming sexual integration or what the solution is, but pretending that the problem has nothing to do with the Frats themselves is just dumb. I hope that women on campuses across America will continue to speak up and demand an end to the mistreatment of women in particular on campuses.</p>
<p>The RAINN website says 90% of campus rapes do not occur at fraternities; rather they happen at the victims residence (60%) or elsewhere. </p>
<p>I puzzled by the statistic. If 10% of rapes occur in fraternities and many universities don’t have frats or have just a few with or without a house (how many communities colleges have frats?), doesn’t this strike you as a very high percentage? Is this your point, that frats have outrageously high rates of rape given the small percentage of college students they represent?</p>
<p>Much2learn: The death in the U. of Alabama fraternity house of one of its members. The fraternity is devastated, from what I understand. Its national office, as well as the university, are providing support in dealing with the loss.</p>
<p>I think that Much2learn’s philosophy is a variant on “kill them all and let the Lord sort them out.” At least he has made it clear that the facts of individual cases are not his concern. Those who read his posts can bear that in mind going forward.</p>
<p>I think that all of us share a deep concern about the apparent epidemic of rapes, assaults, and binge drinking. But some of us also care about facts, and think that only fact-based analysis can lead to effective solutions.</p>
<p>There is also the question of individual justice, for all involved.</p>