Another case of a Frat behaving badly

<p>mammalion,
I don’t know whether 10% is high or not; the percentage is all that is provided in the website. Other information I have found is that 800 colleges have fraternities, and there are about 400,000 current undergraduate fraternity members. It is quite curious to me that there are no more readily available statistics about the incidence of fraternity house rape. I agree with Consolodation that Much2Learn comes across as a witch hunter (doesn’t care about the particular facts of a case(!), just wants “these entitled dregs of society” gone), so I am trying to provide some apparently credible (but who knows?) information. Perhaps you can research it since you are puzzled.</p>

<p>Bay, I am a professor and have worked at three research universities in the last twenty-five years, none with big frat systems. Even so, based on my few experiences, I told my nieces, when they started college, that, as far as I was concerned, they could walk across campus naked at midnight, but they should never go to a frat party. Obviously this was hyperbole, but I felt sheltered high school girls needed to understand how out of control frats can be.</p>

<p>In the US, there are about 21.0 million undergrads, if slightly over half are women, then there are 10,000,000 male undergrads (<a href=“Fast Facts: Enrollment (98)”>Fast Facts: Enrollment (98)). Based on your 400,000 frat members (no sororities), my calculations suggest that 4% of the population is responsible for 10% of the rapes, but that ignores the rapes by frat boys that occur outside of the frat house. I acknowledge that these calculations are very rough, but also very suggestive.</p>

<p>Ok. But do the RAINN stats apply only to rapes occurring on campus? If so, wouldn’t you need to know the on-campus housing stats to make it make sense?</p>

<p>Also, isn’t the college population 60% women now? That would affect your calculations. </p>

<p>@momreads “The death in the U. of Alabama fraternity house of one of its members. The fraternity is devastated, from what I understand. Its national office, as well as the university, are providing support in dealing with the loss.”</p>

<p>Yes, many of the deaths at fraternities involve their own members and often involve participation in various risky behaviors. </p>

<p>@Consolation "I think that all of us share a deep concern about the apparent epidemic of rapes, assaults, and binge drinking. But some of us also care about facts, and think that only fact-based analysis can lead to effective solutions.</p>

<p>There is also the question of individual justice, for all involved."</p>

<p>These are the facts that need to be assessed in more depth: <a href=“Frat brothers rape 300% more. One in 5 women is sexually assaulted on campus. Should we ban frats? | Jessica Valenti | The Guardian”>http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/rape-sexual-assault-ban-frats&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Why Don’t Colleges Get Rid of Their Bad Fraternities? - The Atlantic”>Why Don’t Colleges Get Rid of Their Bad Fraternities? - The Atlantic;

<p>Your ongoing comments trying to portray my view that things need to change as “Kill them and let the Lord sort it out” or that it is “a witch hunt” actually demonstrate your inability to see past your love for Frats. I did not say anyone should be killed. Furthermore, I have tried to make suggestions about how Fraternities could continue on in a modified form. However, it seems that your longing for the good ole days makes you resistant to any of it. </p>

<p>With regard to individual rights, remember that Universities are not courts of law. On campus, the University makes the rules. If students do not like the rules, they do not have to attend. The priority for the University needs to be creating a safe environment for all students. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>But I don’t love frats. I don’t have any longing for the “good ole days.” I went to a women’s college that didn’t have frats OR sororities. You, on the other hand, seem to be inadvertently demonstrating your lack of concern for individuals by trying over and over again to slot me into some pre-existing category in your mind.</p>

<p>I think it was quite obvious that I was not suggesting that you want to kill anyone. Good grief.</p>

<p>@mamalion It looks like the numbers you are estimating are quite close to the number in this article. </p>

<p><a href=“Frat brothers rape 300% more. One in 5 women is sexually assaulted on campus. Should we ban frats? | Jessica Valenti | The Guardian”>http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/rape-sexual-assault-ban-frats&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Much2Learn,
Help me out here as I am on my phone. What are the numbers? What percentage of college rapes happen in fraternity houses?</p>

<p>Rape is a horrible crime. Nobody should be attacking someone who is concerned about the safety of our daughters on campus. The facts are simple. Many more rapes occur than are reported. We know this. We know it is an incredibly difficult crime to “prove” since most rapists, like all sex offenders, make sure to get the victim alone. Pointing to facts and statistics sort of works and sort of doesn’t, and everyone knows this.</p>

<p>I thought it was interesting to hear Jennifer Lawrence label the illegal sharing of her nude photos as a sex crime. It is, isn’t it? It is interesting how much difficulty we have with the idea that a woman’s body is her own. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/2014/10/jennifer-lawrence-cove”>http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/2014/10/jennifer-lawrence-cove&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

</p>

<p>@consolation “demonstrating your lack of concern for individuals”</p>

<p>I am still not entirely convinced that our positions are that far apart. </p>

<p>It is true that, in my view, the top priority is campus safety for the student body. I understand that you are concerned about individual rights, and I am too, but campus safety has to take priority. </p>

<p>Maybe that means that all the Frats need to be removed from campus, or maybe it means that all of the Frats need to be located on campus right between the University President’s house and the campus police station. idk. I am open to whatever it takes to create a safe environment for students, and that includes the Fraternity participants. </p>

<p>I do think that there is a need to change the anything goes mentally that is pervasive at certain Frats. Often when there is an incident at a Fraternity, an individual may be charged, but that is missing the greater point of the group-think of risky behavior that goes on too frequently. Charging individuals is not getting to the larger problem of the environment that they were steeped in.</p>

<p>In the Brown case, I actually do understand your concern for the accused individual. What I completely do not understand is that when an individual is found by a University panel to be “responsible” for sexual misconduct or non-consentual sex (a euphemism for rape), how it can be that they are allowed to return to campus 6 months later. Allowing men found responsible for rape to return to campus at all, let alone while the victim is still there, creates a hostile environment that is not safe for women, and in all likelihood, is less safe for men too. </p>

<p>I agree with you that innocent people should not be found guilty. That is why one of my suggestions is that polygraphs be used in a situation like the one at Brown. Since it is not a court of law, there is no reason that is can’t be used that I am aware of. I think that if both parties test results agree, that it would in many cases bring clarity to the facts of the case. I am sure that it would not be perfect. However, I would bet that it would reduce the frequency of getting decisions wrong compared to the frequency that that occurs currently. If a victim or accused party refuses the test, then I think that would say a lot too.</p>

<p>Hello?</p>

<p>The article says fraternity men 3 times more likely to rape? What does that mean in real life numbers?</p>

<p>Does it mean that if there is a say, 1 in 10,000 chance that any given college man will rape, then for fraternity men it’s 3 in 10,000 chance? Or does it mean something else?</p>

<p>Here is the study Bay. Feel free to wade through it, if you want.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/4925HomeComputer/Rape%20myths/Prospective%20Analysis.pdf”>http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/4925HomeComputer/Rape%20myths/Prospective%20Analysis.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It will have to be much later as I am on my phone. Is it that hard to net it out?</p>

<p>I’m at work. Also, I know the facts. If they interest you, and you would find stuff to support your own points in this study too, feel free to wade through it. The point is that studies do exist. They aren’t that difficult to find. </p>

<p>@Bay “What are the numbers? What percentage of college rapes happen in fraternity houses?”</p>

<p>The number that I have seen is that fraternity members are ~3X more likely to rape than non-fraternity members, even though these same individuals did not exhibit elevated rates of these behaviors prior to joining. </p>

<p>The last comment suggests that it is not that fraternities act as collectors of students who are prone to behave badly, but rather something about the fraternity culture itself that is the problem. </p>

<p>Here is a research paper that supports that number. This paper also sites numerous other related studies with similar findings. NASPA is the Journal of Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education (I have no idea how they get NASPA out of that).</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.academia.edu/163846/Foubert_J._D._Newberry_J._T._and_Tatum_J._L._2007_._Behavior_differences_seven_months_later_Effects_of_a_rape_prevention_program_on_first-year_men_who_join_fraternities._NASPA_Journal_44_728-749”>http://www.academia.edu/163846/Foubert_J._D._Newberry_J._T._and_Tatum_J._L._2007_._Behavior_differences_seven_months_later_Effects_of_a_rape_prevention_program_on_first-year_men_who_join_fraternities._NASPA_Journal_44_728-749&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The article begins on pg 728. The results are on page 739, if that is helpful.</p>

<p>@Much2learn, I do agree wholeheartedly with virtually everything you say in post #109.</p>

<p>In the Brown case, I think that the panel came to the wrong conclusion, ignoring much of the evidence, based on everything that has become public. I think that the relevance for all of us who care deeply about the issue of sexual violence on campus is that the existence of these campus panels, operating (IMHO) on faulty standards and with little or no training or expertise, seem to be increasingly creating situations that succeed in clouding the issue, particularly regarding consent, rather than clarifying it. This can become almost an inimical to addressing the problem effectively as the habit of the courts in the “bad old days” of regularly falling for the idea that if a woman was dressed attractively she was “asking for it,” or if she had had sex with one man she would have sex with anyone, and so forth.</p>

<p>I also agree with this:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I would expand it to include certain athletic teams and probably other organizations.</p>

<p>But even if that were to happen, although it would help, it would not eradicate the problem. As we know, sexual assault stats show it occurring at a dismaying rate at schools that have no Greek organizations. The change must be societal.</p>

<p>I very much appreciate Jennifer Lawrence’s statement that this is a sex crime, not a “scandal.” She continues to impress me. </p>

<p>@bay “Does it mean that if there is a say, 1 in 10,000 chance that any given college man will rape, then for fraternity men it’s 3 in 10,000 chance? Or does it mean something else?”</p>

<p>On page 739 is says that in their study, “…8% of first-year men who joined fraternities committed a sexually coercive act during their first-year compared to 2.5% of men who did not join fraternities.”</p>

<p>The “300% more likely” phrase is derived by dividing the 8% by the 2.5% and rounding. </p>

<p>I think the “lord of the flies” effect exists. We know this to be true.</p>

<p>However, I’m not sure, if we eliminate fraternities that we will eliminate the effect. Boys this age “gang up,” and always have. It’s probably selected for in evolution, anyway, for various reasons, one of them being winners and losers in war. </p>

<p>Really.</p>

<p>This kind of behavior is probably a shape shifter. It’s not like they have no rape problem at Williams, even though they eliminated fraternities.</p>

<p>One thing we can be sure of, inexperienced alcohol use is a real issue in these campus sex crimes, and it is used as a “tool” by the rapists, and fist year girls do tend to go to fraternity parties at levels older girls do not. For good reason. </p>

<p>@‌ Consolation "I would expand it to include certain athletic teams and probably other organizations.</p>

<p>But even if that were to happen, although it would help, it would not eradicate the problem. As we know, sexual assault stats show it occurring at a dismaying rate at schools that have no Greek organizations. The change must be societal."</p>

<p>Yes. Yes. Yes! The entitled attitudes of many athletes are also a problem, and Universities have been complicit in failing to report incidents (e.g., Penn State).</p>

<p>Yes. It is a societal problem that many people believe that non-consentual sex is not really rape, that it is not a big deal, and that raping sorority girls or other co-eds is a good topic for jokes. </p>

<p>The article below was published yesterday about a Texas Tech fraternity party with sign on the wall saying “No means yes, and yes means anal.” The mindset that this is a fine thing to post on the wall at a fraternity party, and that not only did no one take it down, but on the contrary, they took pictures and posted them on the internet. That type of mindset, that rape is funny, is a problem. </p>

<p><a href=“Texas Tech fraternity punished after posting troubling signs at party”>http://www.chron.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/Texas-Tech-fraternity-punished-after-posting-5806416.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It is definitely a societal problem, and also happens too often in situations where fraternities are not involved. I also understand that there are undoubtedly some fraternities that do conduct themselves as true gentlemen and perhaps behave better than the general population. However, that is not what is currently occurring in aggregate.</p>

<p>The unchecked alcohol abuse and under-age drinking at colleges in general and at fraternities in particular is also a major contributor to rape and many other risky behaviors and student deaths. This also needs to be addressed. </p>

<p>Why are fraternities that are recognized by the University, having drinking parties that are loaded with underage students and nothing is being done until someone is raped, dead, or in the hospital? Why does society consistently act like it is just kids having fun until someone’s life is ruined? I do not understand that.</p>