Another Valedictorian Dilemma

Parent Cafe
1

My nephew’s junior high school feeds to a senior high school along with two more junior high schools. He is a sophomore and has 5.5 weighted GPA out of 6.0 and ranks 2 in his school with a 0.002 diffrence.

Top ranking students from other two schools have GPA of 5.4 and 5.6. Do you recommend him to continue taking low GPA fine arts classes or take AP classes instead? He wants both, being a valedictorian and do fine arts which is factually impossible in his district so he has to sacrifice one for the other.

My response was to do what interests you more but his parents are in favor of dropping fine arts and taking some AP Calculus and AP Euro that doesn’t interest him as much. He wants to know what would matter more to colleges if he isn’t valedictorian or salutatorian but has high GPA vs having a slightly lower GPA with 4 years of fine arts. He is not the best Viola player in his school but he likes being part of orchestra.

2

I see kids facing this at our school and neighboring districts a lot. It’s sad that kids have to make this decision due to school grading and ranking systems. He should take fine arts.

3

Appox 50% of applicants to private colleges come from HS’s that DON’T rank. So being the VAl or SAL or top 1,2,3 is irrelevant to the admissions offices .
All colleges recalculate students GPA’s .There is no need to try to juice a transcript, because admins are not dumb and wont be fooled or impressed by a transcript full of “easy” AP classes.
Top colleges, especially , are trying to get the message across to students that the panic about the presumed “need” to take AP classes has gotten far too extreme. Taking more AP classes than your classmate wont “impress” anyone.

He should take the classes that interest him and NOT get sucked into the AP frenzy. ]
This is what the Stanford admissions office says about AP classes and what they look for .

This part is what is most important-
"We want to be clear that this is not a case of “whoever has the most APs wins.”

http://admission.stanford.edu/basics/selection/prepare.html

"Choosing Courses

We expect applicants to pursue a reasonably challenging curriculum, choosing courses from among the most demanding courses available at your school. We ask you to exercise good judgment and to consult with your counselor, teachers and parents as you construct a curriculum that is right for you. Our hope is that your curriculum will inspire you to develop your intellectual passions, not suffer from unnecessary stress. The students who thrive at Stanford are those who are genuinely excited about learning, not necessarily those who take every single AP or IB, Honors or Accelerated class just because it has that designation.
Advanced Placement Courses and Scores

Our admission process allows—and indeed encourages—the flexibility of a high school to design the most appropriate curricular offerings and opportunities for its students. What a course is named or whether it concludes with a standardized test is considerably less important to us than the energy a student contributes to the learning process and the curiosity with which he or she investigates questions and pursues ideas. Sometimes this challenging high school course load will include Advanced Placement classes; other high schools choose to offer equally demanding courses that neither carry the AP designation nor lead to an AP exam.

We want to be clear that this is not a case of “whoever has the most APs wins.” Instead, we look for thoughtful, eager and highly engaged students who will make a difference at Stanford and in the world beyond. We expect that these students have taken high school course loads of reasonable and appropriate challenge in the context of their schools.

As a result, we do not require students to submit AP scores as part of our admission process. AP scores that are reported are acknowledged but rarely play a significant role in the evaluation of an application. Grades earned over the course of a term, or a year, and evaluations from instructors who can comment on classroom engagement provide us with the most detailed insight into a student’s readiness for the academic rigors of Stanford."

He should heed their advise when deciding what classes to take, regardless of where he eventually decides to apply.

4

I vote for the viola…you can study any subject you like in college, but you may never again have the chance to play in an orchestra. Or at least to have that as part of your everyday life…

5

DO THE FINE ARTS. THREAD CLOSED. :wink: But seriously, this is a teachable moment. Striving solely for external validation is the road to ruin.

6

That’s my point too but being a valedictorian looks good on resume and is important to many students who are used to being academic stars in their schools. My son is facing similar dilemma and I can see that both are important to him and letting go of either one is painful. I guess that’s life but it seems unfair that districts don’t change these policies. My step daughter’s school didn’t count these courses towards GPA so she was able to take music, yearbook and a sport yet still become valedictorian of her class. That seems like a fair solution.

7

@menloparkmom That sounds good, but doesn’t work so well in practice at schools that do rank. In our area, the highly ranked kids are the ones getting into Stanford, Ivies, etc. They don’t get a high rank by taking only a few AP’s, because the fewer AP’s taken, the lower the GPA and rank. It’s really tough in some areas and is only hurting the development of the students, unfortunately. Stanford admins and those at other elite schools are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

8

Does he have a sense of what he would like to study in college? Most colleges look at GPA, standardized test scores, and rigor of curriculum as most important. Being Val and Sal is tangentially related. Most schools are going to look at the transcripts first and foremost. I think if he knows what he is interested in he should look into courses that will either provide him credit or at least provide an introduction into subjects which will be necessary for him to take in college. An engineering or physics major who has never taken AP Calc when it was available will probably not be looked at as strongly as one who has regardless of their ranking within their HS. On the other hand merely taking a course such as AP World History just to have an AP course wouldn’t enhance their status as a science major either. However, if he just likes history, go for it!

9

Goodness, is this a real question? What if, heaven forbid, he gets a B and doesn’t get the Val status anyway? Or one of a hundred other things that could go wrong between now and graduation so that he loses his status?

Take the fine arts if that’s what he wants to do. The colleges won’t care if he has val status or not. It will not make one bit of difference.

And as someone who hires college students, I can say that I don’t care at all if you’re a valedictorian. I would skim right over that if it was on your resume.

10

The reasoning of “looks good on a resume” is very weak, at best. It’s one line on the resume. I don’t think it makes that much of a difference when you’re comparing students who are in the top 5% of the class.

11

He never had a B or anything below 95 in 10 years of grade schooling but it is always possible. However, if one goes by the the fear of worst case senerio then one can’t compete at any thing.

12

Fine arts, no question. At our school, the kids with a true art interest (and a fantastic portfolio) rather than all AP’s are the ones that get into the ivies. The all AP valedictorian kids always end up somewhere like BU or UChicago.

13

As I mentioned he is not an accomplished player and his orchestra doesn’t win awards as they are in a very competitive UIL group so this is not going to earn many points with admission committee.

14

We had the same dilemma. Our solution was to sign up for an out-of-school youth orchestra that was not graded and they did not participate in the in-school music program. The in-school program was IMHO too time consuming and inflexible in terms of practice times and performance dates. When thing got busy with exams, they were able to skip the youth orchestra with no penalty and concentrate on school projects. They were able to keep playing their instrument without the pressure of grades, and the AP class eventually lead to an internship, so it worked out well.

The importance of the valedictorian depends on the kid. Most people don’t seem to care, but if is important to the kid and family, then it matters.

15

Stop, Just stop. right. there. and don’t go any further.

First of all, in what corner of the world does an employer who has a job that requires a college degree care whether someone was a valedictorian or not? High school performance doesn’t matter at that point—it’s college performance that matters there, and really only marginally, at that.

Second, in what corner of the world does an employer who has a job that requires a high school diploma care whether someone was a valedictorian or not? High school performance might matter marginally, but what really matters more there is whether the candidate will show up on time and actually work.

And finally, as others have pointed out, valedictorian doesn’t really matter for college admission, even. It particularly doesn’t matter when it’s the difference between valedictorian and salutatorian.

So, very seriously, please just stop.

16

Don’t make some course decision based on trying to be valedictorian. But you can do AP art classes if they are offered. My D did two years of AP art they got same GPA bump as other APs. Would help with the “did student take most rigorous courses offered” box on HS transcript. But not just to try to be Val.

17

As far as the viola goes. If he likes it and wants to continue playing then viola is a good instrument. It’s not as popular as violin or cello and most orchestras need violists. It most likely won’t hold any sway to an admissions committee (unless they desperately needed a principle violist or something:)).

18

I agree he should keep up with art classes if they interest him. He should be aware though that if his curriculum is not rigorous enough there will be colleges that will be less interested in him. That doesn’t mean you have to take every AP in the school by any means, but there is usually some sweet spot for kids in a school. (For example at our school most kids aiming for schools with single digit acceptance rates (CHYMPS) took 7-9 APs, those applying to selective schools (Tufts, Vassar, Middlebury etc) with something closer to 15-20% acceptance rates probably had 5-8.) He may not want to go to the most selective colleges and that’s okay.

Being Valedictorian is pretty meaningless. Jobs and internships ask about college grades. Many high schools determine the valedictorian long after college apps go in.

19

I usually recommend ignoring rank issues and taking what you want – UNLESS you are in a state or aiming for a school that gives special privileges or money based on 1/2 rank. In that case, you kind of have to grub for the rank.

20

I think he should assume that he isn’t going to get into those top colleges and isn’t going to get those titles anyhow and do whatever he likes working under that assumption. Those extra APs and those titles, assuming he can even get them, are no guarantee at all of admission. Tell him to think seriously about how he will feel about his choices then act accordingly. And keep his nose out of other people’s private academic records. Don’t have him be the kid who comes back on this site talking about how he “wasted” his time doing X or Y because he didn’t get the prizes. FWIW, my kid wrote one of her essays about how much she loved her high school music ensemble.