<p>I don’t have an answer to the OP, but in the school district I attended, whether or not you could take Calculus in high school was basically decided upon by the end of 6th grade. It seems really weird that a decision made in 6th grade could affect college admissions so much.</p>
<p>How was it decided in 6th grade?</p>
<p>I know a young woman who dropped a level AND a year in math in early high school in order to fit basic music theory into her schedule. Her GC wrote a note, I think, explaining this, and perhaps it showed dedication, who knows.</p>
<p>She took AP stats as a senior and never got near precalc. Nor did she take a science in senior year. However, she spent weekends at a conservatory prep and took a seminar at another college’s grad program at the invitation of a professor. She graduated from Harvard awhile back.</p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is that students who want to go to Ivies do NOT have to do it all. Much better to have the time and energy to follow authentic interests and talents than to pile on the AP’s. If you are not going to do math in college, I don’t think AP calc is necessary, as long as the student has other things they are doing. </p>
<p>Read the admissions site. They mean what they say. And certainly allow for schools that don’t offer AP’s.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine what life would have been like if this young woman had taken all those courses. She didn’t care that much about getting into Harvard anyway, but liked their music department. It would not have been worth it to live with so much work and stress just to get in.</p>
<p>I think wb means that 6th grade is when kids are “tracked” into the “advanced” or “regular” math paths, which they stay on through high school.</p>
<p>I do know a top Ivy student without AP Calc. His school didn’t offer APs. He had significant talent, though. And perfect SAT scores.</p>
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I have a relative who was admitted to both an ivy and Stanford without taking any AP classes. Her small, rural HS did not offer AP/honors/accelerated classes.</p>
<p>There are also kids who are specialists and are not well rounded. I fit in this category when I applied (and was accepted). I applied as a prospective engineering major whose specialty was math/science and weakness was English/language. My math and science classes were very advanced, well beyond AP calc, and I did well in them. However, I did not take AP English, which was offered at my HS, and typically received B’s in the English classes I did take. I only took 3 years of sequential foreign language, which was fewer than the vast majority of graduates from my HS. Some ivy applicants from my HS had completed 6 years of sequential foreign language upon graduation. I expect there are also admits who are the reverse and specialize in English/language, but are relatively weak in math/science… prospective English/language major admits who do amazing things in English/language, but do not take calculus and receive a good number of B’s in less advanced math.</p>
<p>6th grade can determine if a student gets to calculus because some districts spread AP calc over two years. 6th grade tracking is determined, 7th grade algebra, 8th grade geometry, 9th grade alg 2 and trig, 10th grade pre calc, 11th grade calc AB, 12th grade calc BC. </p>
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<p>Perhaps not as early as 6th grade, but by 8th grade, students are typically tracked into “advanced” (algebra 1 in 8th grade) and “regular” (pre-algebra in 8th grade, to take algebra 1 in 9th grade). If a student is placed in the “regular” track in 8th grade, then s/he will not be able to take calculus in high school unless she does something unusual scheduling-wise (summer math courses, doubling up geometry and algebra 2, etc.).</p>
<p>When I went to high school, the tracks were as follows:</p>
<p>
grade regular advanced
8th prealgebra algebra 1
9th algebra 1 geometry
10th geometry algebra 2
11th algebra 2 trig/precalc
12th trig/precalc calculus BC
</p>
<p>Every few years, there would be a double-advanced student who took algebra 1 in 7th grade and completed calculus BC in 11th grade. The whole idea of making a double-advanced student (who would generally be considered a top student in math) take calculus over two years (AB in 11th grade and the rest of BC in 12th grade) is strange.</p>
<p>Of course, some schools may put students into different tracks even earlier than 8th grade.</p>
<p>But we’re talking Ivies. and what the competition drives today.
Fwiw, my kids did: 8 alg1, 9 alg2, 10 geom (trig was somewhere in there,) 11 precalc and 12 was open for calc or AP calc. There were kids who opted into a general math in 11th and maybe stats or nothing in 12th. Yes, some hs track and some of those make it very tough to move up. But it varies. When it is an option to take AP calc- and you want a single digit school, choose wisely. </p>
<p>Good post data10. You make the point much more clearly than I did!</p>
<p>Some posters may be confusing causation with correlation – that is, most Ivy-bound high school students are told that that they ought to take the most challenging curriculum, including AP Calc, at their schools – so they sign up for the course. Then of course the Ivy admit stats show that the students who took those courses got in – but did having that particular course on their transcript make any difference one way or another for the kids who were applying with arts/humanities profiles? </p>
<p>My d. attended an arts-focused high school that did not really offer AP Calc when she was there, but every year one or two kids were accepted to Ivies. (I believe that students who really wanted the course could sign up to take it online, but the pass rate for the AP exam was dismally low, so that really wasn’t a good option). </p>
<p>I do think that the college ad coms look to see a courseload that is a good match for the prospective student’s interests and talents. Also, “most rigorous” curriculum is not a hard and fast rule - colleges also like to see kids who have found challenge outside of and beyond the regular high school offerings – so it’s not just a matter of tallying up the AP’s and ticking off a box. </p>
<p>Beyond looking at what intro-level math courses the Ivies offer, you might also look a what alternatives they offer to satisfy a quantitative reasoning course requirement (among those colleges which have core or distribution requirements.) - as students who are not STEM majors and didn’t have calculus in high school are probably unlikely to enroll in any calc class - they will be more likely avoiding college math altogether or looking for some sort of alternative.</p>
<p>Thanks for the input! Our school does offer AP Calc. But the honors math courses leading up to it (for the accelerated students) weed many kids out before they get there. </p>
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<p>In order to track students as 8th graders, you need to base the tracking off something. This is usually grades or test scores from 7th grade, so it’s really being decided upon in 7th grade. In my school district, tracking started in 7th grade with some people taking 7th grade math and others taking 8th grade math. But your track was based off a test taken in 6th grade.</p>
<p>So glad this thread exists. I have wrestled with this so much. We’re homeschoolers, so it’s a lot different than someone who is restricted to just what their school does or does not offer. But my son has no clear major in mind, but he is super creative and will have arts supplements in music, animation and architecture for various schools. </p>
<p>Math has been his biggest challenge due to a disability. He scored 750 on the math SAT and he’s studying to pass out of pre-calculus this summer at the local community college in order than he can take Calculus I there. Because there’s still a possibility that he might major in some sort of special engineering (several engineering programs are also design programs) or computer science with a game design emphasis, I feel like he “should” have Calculus I, and there’s even room in his schedule for Calc II in the spring.</p>
<p>If he can’t test out, he will have to take pre-calc (he’s dropped it twice now at the CC) in the fall and then Calc I in the spring. The good news is that he’s studying math about 3 hours a day and is learning; hopefully, it will be enough. There are some top schools on the list because of his good SAT score and GPA and areas of interest, but I think his application will hinge on his arts supplement, his essays, and his letters of recommendation rather than the strength of his curriculum.</p>
<p>@sbjdorlo – because your son is homeschooled, you really cannot predict admissions at schools that might be a reach for him. I think test scores, including AP’s, would tend to be more important for him than for kids who are coming from regular high schools. Obviously you will need to focus on schools with holistic admissions standards, and I would also suggest that you take a conservative approach in assessing whether a school is a reach/match/safety. Your son’s diverse interests also complicated matters - he is not someone who can be easily slotted into a common stereotype – so again, hard to make predictions. </p>
<p>I don’t see the value in your pressuring your son to take CC courses he has difficulties with in order to bolster college admissions – it pretty much goes against the whole point of homeschooling. That is, you decided to homeschool because you wanted to provide an education that was individualized according to your son’s needs and interests. Of course it makes sense to have him take CC courses that you know are required for college admissions – but not so valuable when the course is merely something that might be a boost (or might not make a difference).</p>
<p>Whatever he plans to take in the spring won’t make a difference for college admissions anyway. And if he enrolls in Calc 1 in the fall, based on testing out of a course that he self-studies and tests out of (pre-calc) - and then gets a low grade, that can hurt more than help. How will a college look at a C in Calc 1 vs. an A in pre-calc from a homeschooled kid whose primary talents seem to be with music and visual arts (animation)? </p>
<p>Have your son focus on his strengths and apply to schools that will appreciate his talents. </p>
<p>Why did your son drop pre-calc before? If math doesn’t come all that easily to him, he’s not doing himself any favors by plunging into a course he isn’t ready for just to bolster a college app. As is pretty clear from this thread, he’ll be able to pick up calc as a college freshman if he needs it for his major - and he may do a lot better if he spends the coming year working at the math level that is most comfortable for him.</p>
<p>calmom,</p>
<p>I can address your questions which might help understand why this is even more of an unknown.</p>
<p>My son was diagnosed with a unilateral hearing loss at 9 (which worsened at age 15, so he had surgery and was fitted for an aid), diabetes at almost 11, and a severe vision disability at 11 (for which he finally decided to have surgery to correct this past December). These factors (spending a <em>lot</em> of time in doctor’s offices over the years), along with the math disability, have made him a relative late bloomer in a lot of ways, since we really de-emphasized things that required extensive reading or calculation.</p>
<p>Because of all of these issues, he has no AP test scores and won’t take his three subject tests until Oct and Nov. He will take 4 AP exams next May but of course that doesn’t help with admissions. He will have 42.5 community college units, as well, but when he applies, he’ll only have 28.5.</p>
<p>He’s intelligent (is a member of a group for highly gifted kids), but his SAT score still was a pleasant surprise at 2230.</p>
<p>I have thought he shouldn’t shoot high at all, but my MIT son keeps telling me about kids at MIT that got 2s on their AP Calc exams, or kids that have lower SATs (and I know this is true); he says to let my son “go for it” and if he ends up at the local state school down the street (a party school, but still very selective because everyone wants to come to So Cal) or just continuing with community college, so be it.</p>
<p>Because our family qualifies for a lot of need-based aid, it’s hard to resist looking at some programs at highly selective schools that seem interesting. My son has pretty low expectations of himself, so he wouldn’t be surprised or disappointed if he doesn’t get into any school.</p>
<p>About pre-calc: He signed up for it in the spring, but panicked when the prof said they couldn’t use calculators. (He has accommodations at the college, but not the use of a calculator, though he now says it’s not a calculator he needs but a better memory for formulas) He signed up again this summer, but the class was 2 1/2 hours and the teacher said she expected them to do at least 5 hours of homework a day in addition to the class. Whew! </p>
<p>Since he’s working as a cellist this summer about 25+ hours a week, that was just impossible. So, he dropped it, signed up for two refresher courses-trig and college alg.-that use Aleks software, and after the courses are done at the end of the month, I think he should be able to pass the exam (70% to pass). He’s doing about 3-4 hours of math a day, but it’s from home, and that’s more manageable than the class.</p>
<p>I also like the fact that all this math will help him take the Math II subject test with little studying. He knows if he wanted to go CS or engineering, he’s got to be able to do the math, so doing Calc in high school seemed a good way to narrow it down.</p>
<p>Yes! I want him to focus on his strengths and apply to schools that will appreciate his talent, but I don’t really know which schools will appreciate him. That’s the $64,000 question.</p>
<p>I am sure that there are kids at MIT who have lower SAT scores than your son, but they probably had very strong high school GPA’s as a counterweight- as well as other factors that made them attractive to MIT. Was your son at MIT also homeschooled? Or did you choose to homeschool your younger son in part to accommodate his multiple health problems?</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with applying to some reach colleges, but you really have to work on the assumption that your son probably is not likely to be admitted to the elite, reach schools with his background - and from what you say about him, I’m wondering whether a school like MIT would be a good fit. Do you really want your son who “has pretty low expectations of himself” and who “panicked” when a prof said the students couldn’t use calculators to be in a highly competitive, high-pressure academic environment? Is MIT going to be the best place for a kid who wants accommodations for a math disability? (Yes, all schools are required to provide appropriate accommodations for disabilities… but in practice there is a very wide range of what may be offered.).</p>
<p>Your son sounds like a kid who might do a whole lot better in a more supportive educational environment that would also provide opportunities and flexibility to pursue his interests. </p>
<p>I understand why, with financial concerns, the most generous full-need colleges would be attractive: but the odds are that they will turn your son down— it’s only worth the application fee if there is a reasonable chance of admission and the school is also a good fit for your son. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that many colleges leverage their need-based aid, giving very generous need-based aid to students who are the top of their applicant pools – so even if a college does not have a reputation for being generous with aid, your son’s SAT score might bring him a very generous award – so you might want to look at schools where his scores are well above the median. </p>
<p>Oh, sorry I wasn’t clear! This son isn’t applying to MIT or any STEM schools, for sure. </p>
<p>And my son has a good GPA-only one B and the rest As in all his classes at the community college, online, and at our local co-op. </p>
<p>And I actually meant the opposite of what I said about this son: he actually has very high expectations of himself; in fact, I think he’s too hard on himself. He’s faced a lot of adversity and is doing great, but he doesn’t see it that way.</p>
<p>I have had a hard time finding colleges that are financially viable that are also more supportive and flexible, particularly in his areas of interest. I have looked at so.many.colleges! There are a few I have found. He has 5 safeties, 3 matches and 6 reaches on his list. I imagine when ACT and subject test scores come back, that should shape the list more. And if his arts supplement turns out really well, that could shape things, too.</p>
<p>I helped a young lady with a 1700 SAT get into USC, so I know there are kids with a talent who do get into schools of their choices with less than stellar scores and weaker transcripts academically (she also got into UCLA).</p>
<p>My MIT son was homeschooled/part time college all the way through. We homeschooled originally because he was too wiggly to sit still and too advanced in math to fit in anywhere around where we live.</p>
<p>Anyhow, back to the original post. In our case, I think it’s really important for my son to take Calculus if he can.</p>
<p>Hi again - just wanted to clarify. I wasn’t asking about taking Calculus at all, just AP Calc. Our district offers “Calculus” and “AP AB Calculus.” If you don’t get an A in honors pre-calc, you can’t take AP AB Calc and are put into regular Calc. Our honors pre-calc is an extremely difficult course and many kids drop back to regular pre-calc. The position that the district takes on this is that there is not enough preparation in regular pre-calc to then go on and take AP Calc. So, those kids, while still accelerated (often taking pre-calc as sophomores) end up in regular, non-AP Calc. It is my understanding that every kid who has gotten into a Ivy has taken AP Calc, so once you can’t make that A in honors pre-calc, you are off the Ivy track. This leads to extensive outside tutoring for kids who can afford it. (My daughter jumped off the track and thus will only take regular Calc next year as a junior, but is not on the Ivy track anyway.) </p>
<p>One doesn’t necessarily have to take AP calc to be admitted to HYPSMCC colleges even if it was offered at a given HS. </p>
<p>Some HS classmates who were on the lowest academic track at my public magnet would have only proceeded up to pre-calc by senior year and yet, were admitted to such colleges, including MIT. The MIT guy was well known as a class character and an actual genius. He just happened to come from one of the worst public junior high schools in the city where they didn’t offer advanced academic courses. </p>
<p>However, they will need other qualities to compensate such as essay, positive GPA progression, etc. </p>
<p>It’s not a hard and fast rule. It’s about the nature of the competition for the admit to that Ivy. The pool, locally and as a whole, has many top achievers with 4.0 (or darned close) plus rigor- an A in pre-calc. The Ivies can cherry-pick kids with both the academic achievement and the right ‘rest of the story.’. </p>
<p>Cobrat, the nature of the competition today. When it comes to the number of applicants today, there is little from the past that has bearing. </p>