How important are AP classes? AP exams? National AP Merit?
Yes, I know the common advice: do as much as you can, but only if it interests you. I noticed that admission officers like to be life coaches - each time you ask a question about admission to Ivy they tell you a life story about happiness of simple life and ugliness of grade grabbing. Ya, sure. Grrr.
Stanford says that “AP scores that are reported are acknowledged but rarely play a significant role in the evaluation of an application.”
AP exams are not that easy to pass with good grade. If fact, it is much easier to get A in my D’s classroom than 5 on AP exam. I am very confused. If it they useless for admission - why spend time taking them? My D is a good student, but she would certainly enjoy spending weekend on a beach rather than spending a weekend taking a test. She is NOT planning to take AP tests to substitute college credits. I would really appreciate if replies would discuss admission only. I know all about happiness of simple life at community college and ugliness of grade grabbing.
Should my D even take AP exams if they are merely “acknowledged but insignificant”? Should my D take an exam after a self-study?
Looks like AP exams are not very useful for admission . Am I missing something?
AP’s are primarily used for credit/placement purposes; they carry little/no weight in the admissions process. There is no reason for DD to self study any AP’s.
That said, the courses will show rigor, which is important for admissions.
They aren’t required for admission, but, certainly, good scores on AP exams can be submitted as part of an application and demonstrate mastery in an area. Aside from the cost, there’s little down side. I wouldn’t self-study just to look good for colleges (I wouldn’t do anything just to look good for colleges), but if your dd has taken an AP course I see no reason no to take the corresponding exam.
Most extremely competitive colleges do not give credit for AP scores. However, to get into those top schools, a student will need to show that he/she is taking the “most challenging classes” offered at his/her high school. So if the school offers AP classes and the applicant hasn’t taken them, that could count against the applicant. Many schools–especially smaller schools, rural schools–do not offer any AP classes. In that situation, it wouldn’t count against the student. But if the student took the initiative to study for them on his/her own, AND got 5s, that would be more impressive. (I do know a kid who recently got into a top Ivy with no APs–school did not offer them, and he did not take them on his own. However, he was nearly perfect in every other way–grades, SAT, very significant talent and ECs, significant leadership, etc.) If your D’s school offers a lot of APs, and your D doesn’t take them, she would likely need something else very special to get into a top school.
If this kid is getting As in class but can’t “pass” an AP exam the chances of “a top Ivy” are slim to none. AP credit is very useful and accepted at most college and universities that most kids attend. They can allow a student to bypass some distribution requirements and allow more time to experiment or double major.
AP tests, like SAT tests, are standardized and help colleges confirm that the student did understand the material, and that the class was taught to AP standards. They also confirm the rigor of a students transcript at schools that offer AP classes.
An “A” on a transcript will not carry as much “weight” if the student can’t score a 4 or 5 on the AP test.
AP scores, if they are 4 or 5’s, can eliminate the need to take basic classes in college, such as in the sciences or math,and allow them to start at a more advanced level. At schools that have a foreign language requirement for graduation ,4’s or 5’s they can eliminate the need to take foreign language classes entirely, thereby saving tuition $$ and opening up the students schedule to other classes .
Because schools are so different it’s hard for admissions officers to give one simple answer. In your school kids get A’s but can’t get 5’s on the exam. In other schools kids get B’s and get 5’s on the exams. It’s all about context.
There are two basic approaches - figure out what colleges you want to aim for and make sure you take a rigorous enough program compared to other students in your school and then take the appropriate number of APs. MIT used to say that the average MIT student had taken 5 APs, but in our school students who aimed at MIT level schools had 6 to 8 APs and many took a post-AP math class. Note that our school offered 24 APs, but no student could possibly take that many. In general I’d say students too either a science or world history AP sophomore year and a science, history and English language AP junior year, and a science or history, language and English history senior year. Some kids took Econ or Government or Art or Music. Many didn’t do the language AP.
The second approach is to take the number of APs you think you can handle in the areas that interest you and then find out what kind of colleges that will put you in the running for at your school. In theory I think that’s the way to go.
In practice in my family my kids did a bit of both. I told my older son who had the test scores and grades to make the most selective schools in the country logical ones to put on his list that he had to take APUSH. I pointed out that at many colleges a good score would mean he wouldn’t have to take it in college. That proved to be the case - he was going to have to take US History anyway, I thought he should take the more demanding course. It was the right choice for him, even if he dragged his feet initially.
For both kids there was a certain expectation from their friends that they were “AP kids” so they all tended to be in the same set of classes - with some variations. For example, both my kids opted out of AP English. Older son took AP Econ and had take AP Comp Sci as a freshman so his schedule was plenty rigorous. My younger son’s primary interest was history, but he still took AP Calc BC and AP Physics C.
Most colleges say they don’t care about the scores. I’ve never known whether to believe them, but I think they say this because they understand that many AP classes really aren’t taught as well as they should be, and they aren’t going to see scores from the senior year APs anyway. I think all my kids’ colleges asked for self-reported but not official scores. I have to think it helps if those scores are 4s and 5s - and better 5’s and the super selective schools.
AP class grade is more important than test score itself.
So, score doesn’t really matter in admission but the fact that you do well in AP class matters.
Also, AP test scores are very very useful in weeding out some humanity/Social behavioral classes. For instance, I have 44 AP credits, and it covered almost all humanity class requirements, giving me more time to focus on engineering classes.
“AP class grade is more important than test score itself.”
Not at many top colleges. Many students applying to Ivy’s took AP classes AND scored 4’s or 5’s on the AP tests. The most competitive colleges are interested in how much the applicant actually learned in the AP classes they took, hence they do look at AP tests results, and actively discourage kids from thinking that the more AP Classes taken, the better.
Anything other than 4’s or 5’s wont even be considered for course credit or placement at top colleges.
Class grade is more important for admissions to college, but if you want credit for your AP only the score matters. (Note that colleges vary widely on how much if any credit they will grant and on what scores are considered sufficent and which APs they will even consider.)
Oh, I meant for colleges in general. You are right, not in top schools. For example, MIT would accept very few AP credits. Only AP credits I know they accept are Physics C Mechanics AND electricity and English.
AP’s are a reality check for Adcom’s in a lot of ways. If a kid has a stellar GPA but took three AP classes and then the relevant AP tests junior year and got 3’s- that’s a datapoint on both grade inflation and course rigor. If a kid claims an interest in engineering but did not take BC Calc (if offered) or either AP Physics or Chem (if offered) but took AP Psych and Environmental instead- that’s a datapoint on a kid who might not understand what engineering is (or what’s required academically). If a kid claims an interest in English/History, and took AP English and one of the histories junior year but does not submit AP scores- that’s a datapoint that either the kid did not do well on the exams (see my first point- both rigor and grade inflation) or that the school is lazy about how it administers the AP program. (Letting kids load up on AP’s to boost the GPA without caring how much of the material gets covered in a comprehensive way).
So I wouldn’t push a reluctant kid to take an AP he or she is not interested in. I wouldn’t lose sleep over a kid who prefers to take astronomy or earth science over an AP science. But be aware that a kid coming out a school with a well regarded curriculum/rigor with no AP’s is making a choice and Adcom’s at the more competitive colleges will take note of that choice.
The whole credit/placement business is another issue entirely, but I take it the OP is interested from a gatekeeping perspective, correct???
@blossom Do you know for a fact that Adcoms do this kind of reality checking? I know I would if I were an Adcomm, but I’ve heard numerous Adcoms say they don’t when asked point blank at our college night events. They all say they care about you taking a rigorous curriculum and getting good grades, but they claim they don’t look at the scores. (The same ones who when asked if it’s better to get an A in a regular course than a B in the AP course, wince and reply “It’s better to get an A in the AP course.” with chuckles all around.)
When you are dealing with an acceptance percentage of something like 15% or below, every little thing helps, I find it unbelievable that an adcom reading an app from a kid with a string of 5s on AP exams listed in the Honors section isn’t going to think more of that kid’s preparation than a kid with a string of 3s, or no listed scores at all, indicating that they didn’t take the exams or they did poorly on them.
However, there is one key group who will not find it impressive: adcoms.
From personal experience, last Spring, I went to an Exploring College Options event, which had reps from Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Duke, and Georgetown. During the Q&A, someone asked, “What do you think of applicants who self-study for additional AP’s over and above the AP classes they take?” One rep responded, “Please don’t do that. We’re not impressed by that.” The other reps all nodded.
Note that you don’t even submit AP scores for admission (except for a few schools). Even if you do, it would only contain the score(s) up to Junior year. Considering the AP availability to be varied from school to school, it would be simply unfair to use AP score as a criteria for admission. AP classes and GPA are important, but not the AP score, for admission. Most schools do give AP credits, however, the requirement and amount vary a lot. Some may have additional requirement like “getting a C or above in the next level class” before they give you the AP credit. Self study AP is solely for the AP credit.
The key is “self studied” @skieurope That is completely different than taking the classes that are offered at your school and matching a high grade with a 4 or 5 on the exam. They are trying to tamp down the crazy a bit with that comment.
There are many kids in the “chance me” threads who list all the self study that they plan to do as if the plan should impress people. That will not get you in. If the AP classes represent the most challenging schedule at your school and you don’t take a strong selection of those classes or take them but do poorly on the exams that can’t help and might hurt.