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<p>There are some studies at the Programmers’ Guild site ([The</a> Programmers Guild](<a href=“http://www.programmersguild.org%5DThe”>http://www.programmersguild.org)). Also see UC Davis Prof. Norm Matloff’s H-1B web page ([Norm</a> Matloff’s H-1B Web Page: cheap labor, age discrimation, offshoring](<a href=“http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html]Norm”>http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html)) for more extensive studies of offshoring and hiring of guest workers.</p>
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<p>You need to read the question you are answering. The sources you cite talk about computer and IT work. That is not the same as engineering.</p>
<p>For software jobs, you might find these posts on interviewing interesting:</p>
<p>[How</a> Effective are Technical Interviews? Jean Hsu](<a href=“http://www.jeanhsu.com/2011/02/03/how-effective-are-technical-interviews/]How”>http://www.jeanhsu.com/2011/02/03/how-effective-are-technical-interviews/)</p>
<p>[Hiring</a> Developers: You’re Doing It Wrong](<a href=“http://devinterviews.pen.io/]Hiring”>http://devinterviews.pen.io/)</p>
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<p>Well, that depends on what you consider to be engineering. Some people (even in this thread) consider software engineering to be a part of engineering. My posts speak to them. I’ll also note that the OP mentioned CS, which I assume from context stands for Computer Science.</p>
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<p>What about that person’s thread leads you to believe he was specifically concerned with software engineering? If anything, the most obvious assumption is that he is interested in other engineering.</p>
<p>This isn’t a matter of whether software engineering is engineering or not (frankly it doesn’t matter to me one way or another). It is a matter of the abuse of the facts that people on these boards like to perpetrate. Many, many times, people see the offshoring/outsourcing issues in the software/IT/computer industry and immediately extrapolate them to the rest of the engineering world because the facts are improperly wielded. In reality, there is no evidence that I have yet been shown (or seen in person) that would indicate that offshoring/outsourcing is a serious problem (or even a noticeable problem) outside of those specific computer-related industries. I am merely trying to prevent this from occurring again, as it seems to happen way too much around here.</p>
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<p>Given that the OP (and others) made some inquiries about the prospects for people seeking work in the software/IT/computer industry, my responses spoke to that. This is sufficient justification for my responses.</p>
<p>Software development supporting either defense or health records (because of privacy issues) will not be outsourced.</p>
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<p>Maybe, but if all the jobs outside of these areas are outsourced than all of the software people will need to work in those areas, the field will contract, and pay will go down.</p>
<p>“One of my friend works in Oracle. The company’s policy is if there is employee resign, the company will not recruit new emplyee in US. The new openning will be filled in India. The company my wife working, a well-known US top ten one. has the same policy. It is very sad.”</p>
<p>I know this was posted a while ago but this is simply not true, I am interning at at IT consulting company right now as a process engineer. We also have a IT staffing part of the company and they have been filling positions in Quantico, VA among other places in North Carolina at the very least for Oracle Corporation.</p>
<p>If you look at the BLS OOH, Software has more jobs than engineering disciplines and is growing faster. Forget offshoring… you’d still bebetter off in software.</p>
<p>“I think that if you are an engineering student who is a US citizen with a GPA of above a 3.5, some work experience, writing and interpersonal skills, and is active in college extracurriculars, there is no difficulty finding a good job.”</p>
<p>I’m a international student with an F-1 visa. How would it be for non-us citizens to get a job in engineering?</p>
<p>I have a warning for students interested in engineering. I am an employed engineer that has worked for 30 years in the field. I came out of college with all of the advice and enthusiasm that I have read on this board. I graduated with a 3.8 from Michigan State University and later received my Masters at UM. I also had an internship. All of these were important to getting an “initial job”, but quickly they will become irrelevant and most do not seem do understand that making a long-term “career” out of engineering (i.e. retiring from the field) is a battle and I wouldn’t advise anyone to enter (most engineering fields). I would suggest heathcare where jobs are less apt to be outsourced and are in long-term need due to an aging population.</p>
<p>A couple of items that many should consider when going into engineering. </p>
<p>1) If manufacturing is being conducted in a third world country, why would you need say a US EE or ME who is stationed on the other side of the globe? I have worked in both China and India and they have plenty of capable engineers that can perform the jobs where they are needed… in the countries where the manufacturing has been outsourced to.</p>
<p>2) What about engineering professions such as “Civil”… surely, they cannot be outsourced. True. However, as my counselor friend who works for Northwestern (yes, NW), put it… they are only placing 1 out of 5 graduating CEs. Many of whom are leaving the US as ex-pats to China, India, Abu Dhabi, etc.</p>
<p>3) It’s all about “green engineering”… we need new technology, correct. How many engineers do they really need to work on developing new windmills? The concept has been around since 1AD and honestly there is very little aerodynamic development work that is needed to optimize these creatures. How about high tech automotive engines? After all the problem with non-green cars is the technology correct. No. The problem is infrastructure… the technology is simple. An major automotive OEM can produce an alternative fuel car. It’s not the technology… it’s where do you get it filled up at. How about nuclear… hmmm I think Japan just sent a very clean and practical power source back a good decade or too. In addition, I have a friend who is a recruiter for “environmental engineering”… extremely hard to place people unless you are an “exact fit”… In other words, if you don’t fit exactly in the box, with the exact background, irregardless of how good of an engineer you are… you won’t get the job.</p>
<p>4) Stability… This country values banking and has never valued hard sciences. The simple fact of the matter is that I have worked for over 15 different companies over the course of my career, due to downsizing, re-organization, mergers and acquisitions, and the inevitable bankruptcies and closed doors. Most of the companies I have worked for do not exist or exist in the manner when I worked for them (read unhealthy and on their knees). Final thought, most of the engineers I know over the age of 40 are out of work… why??? They’re experienced right??? The problem is the actuarians that consult for the companies understand that once you reach the age of 35… you cost more… you are more apt to have a family and children… you’re more apt to get sick and take disability… you have a higher income… you have more vacation… more wants and needs, etc. Most companies will simply replace you with lower cost out of school engineers or H1B Visa Holders… both of which they can exploit.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that engineering is an out standing field “when you’re employed”… </p>
<p>5) Long hours… perhaps the most ridiculous hours required of any profession, irregardless of the discipline… Civil, Electrical, Mechanical, Industrial, Chemical, Environmental, etc. I have worked all over the world for extended periods of time and long hours and less personal time (read tethered to a blackberry 24/7) is the norm. Engineering in general is a profession where it is very difficult to have “a life”.</p>
<p>6) Little to no chance for lateral movement. You better like where you interned… because for the rest of your working days you will be in the exact area you chose until you die or your company goes under… better hope you do not become unemployed for an extended period of time or you will not work in your field again… period. In the old days, engineers were known as being “generalists” and it was very easy for say a chemical engineer to work in a completely different field. Today, if you are an aeronautical engineer, automotive engineer… whatever… good luck trying to get a job as a lowly h-vac engineer (when the econ takes another dump and your company downsizes or goes under)… they’ll just want an h-vac engineer with 15 yrs of experience, specialized certificates, a masters, commercial… not residential or vise a versa, etc… even though a monkey can do the task…</p>
<p>Years ago, I would have laughed at a posting like this. I would have talked about changing the world and making big, instant money (I did). The problem is that there is no stability (read chance to make a long term career) in most engineering disciplines. This country has outsourced most of it’s manufacturing base and it no longer needs engineers over here. As for other engineering disciplines, we are a broke nation and congress (both parties) seems uninterested in investing in areas that might promote, other, non-transferable engineering career paths such as Civil or Environment… without money to create an infrastructure for say hydrogen powered cars, or to rebuild bridges and highway systems… better look for that expat job in China where they value the hard sciences (they do). This nation is run by bankers and if they can exploit a H1B visa holder for a few buck less… they will.</p>
<p>Sorry to be a pessimist, but I would advise all engineers to work on a second major as a back-up plan. I know too many “older” unemployed engineers that were unable to make it to retirement. I have been lucky and god willing I will make it another 15yrs until I can retire… good luck and god bless. - John</p>
<p>I have a warning for students interested in engineering. I am an employed engineer that has worked for over 30 years in the field. I came out of college utilizing most of the good advice and enthusiasm that I have read on this board. I graduated from Michigan State University with a 3.8 GPA and later received my masters at the University of Michigan. And yes, I also had an internship. All of these were important factors in getting the “initial job”, but they quickly become irrelevant. Most young engineers do not seem to understand that making a long-term “career” out of engineering (i.e. retiring from the field) is very hard to do (read a constant stressfull battle). Knowing what I know now, I would not advise anyone to enter most engineering disciplines. I would suggest health are where jobs are less apt to be outsourced and have a long-term need due to an aging population.</p>
<p>A couple of items that many should consider when going into engineering: </p>
<p>1) If manufacturing is being conducted in a third world country, why would you need say a US EE or ME who is stationed on the other side of the globe? I have worked in both China and India for extended periods of time and they have plenty of capable engineers that can perform the jobs where they are needed (read where the products are being produced)… </p>
<p>2) What about engineering professions such as “Civil”… surely, they cannot be outsourced. True. However, as my counselor friend who works for Northwestern (yes, NW), puts it… they are only placing 1 out of every 5 graduating CEs… many of whom are leaving the US as ex-pats to China, India, Abu Dhabi, etc.</p>
<p>3) It’s all about “green engineering”. We need new technology, correct? How many engineers do they really need to work on developing new windmills? The concept has been around since 1AD and honestly there is very little aerodynamic development work that is needed to optimize these creatures. How about high tech automotive engines? After all the problem with non-green cars is the technology correct? No. The problem is not the technology, its the infrastructure (or lack there of)… the technology portions is the easy part. Any major automotive OEM can produce an alternative fuel car. It’s not the technology… it’s where you get it filled up at. How about nuclear engineering… hmmm, I think Japan just sent the progression of a very clean and practical power source back a few decades or two. In addition, I have a friend who is a recruiter for “environmental engineering.” She finds it extremely hard to place people unless they are an “exact fit.” In other words, if you don’t fit exactly in the box, with the exact background, irregardless of how good of an engineer you are, you won’t receive consideration for the job.</p>
<p>4) Stability… This country values banking and has never valued hard sciences. The simple fact of the matter is that I have worked for over 15 different companies over the course of my career, due to downsizing, re-organization, mergers, acquisitions, bankruptcies and the inevitable closed doors. Most of the companies I have worked for no longer exist or exist in a manner that it hardly recognizable (read on their knees and bleeding to death). Final thought, most of the engineers I know over the age of 40 are out of work… why??? They’re experienced right??? The problem is that the actuarians that consult for the companies understand that once you reach the age of 35… you cost more. You are more apt to have a family and children. You’re more apt to get sick and take disability. You have a higher income. You have more vacation. You have more wants and needs, etc. Most companies will simply replace you with a lower cost “out of school” engineer or an H1B Visa holder… both of which they can exploit.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that engineering is an outstanding field “when you’re employed”… </p>
<p>5) Long hours… perhaps the most ridiculous hours required of any profession, irregardless of the discipline… Civil, Electrical, Mechanical, Industrial, Chemical, Environmental, etc. I have worked all over the world for extended periods of time and long 50-70hr weeks are the norm, irregardless of where one works. Less personal time (read tethered to a blackberry 24/7) is the norm. Engineering in general is a profession where it is very difficult to have “a life”.</p>
<p>6) Little to no chance for lateral movement. You better like where you interned… because for the rest of your working days you will be in the exact area you initially chose (read until you die, your company goes under, you lose your job, or you go back to school). In addition, you better hope you do not become unemployed for an extended period of time or you will never work in your field again… period. In the old days, engineers were known as being “generalists” and it was very easy for say a chemical engineer to work in a completely different field. Today, if you are an aeronautical engineer, automotive engineer… whatever… good luck trying to get a job as a lowly h-vac engineer (when the econ takes another dump and your company downsizes or goes under)… they’ll just want an h-vac engineer with 15 yrs of experience, specialized certificates, a masters degree, a specialized commercial… not residential background (or vise a versa), etc… even though a monkey can do the task…</p>
<p>Years ago, I would have laughed at a posting like this. I would have talked about changing the world and making big, instant money. I did. I would have talked about all of the positive qualities that I was spoon-fed by the school and media. The problem is that there is no stability (read a chance to make a long term career) in most engineering disciplines. This country has outsourced most of it’s manufacturing base and it no longer needs engineers over here. As for other engineering disciplines, we are a broke nation and congress (both parties) seem uninterested in investing in areas that might promote other, non-transferable engineering career paths such as Civil or Environmental… but without money to create an infrastructure for say hydrogen powered cars or to rebuild bridges and highway systems… better look for that ex-pat job in China where they stll value the hard sciences. This nation is run by bankers and if they can exploit a student or an H1B visa holder for a few buck less… they will.</p>
<p>Sorry to be a pessimist, but I would advise all engineers to work on a second major as a “back-up” plan. I know too many “older” unemployed engineers that were unable to make it to retirement. They are in their golden years, broke, angry, and going back to school with nothing. I have been extremely lucky and god willing I will make it another 15yrs until I can retire… good luck and god bless. - John</p>
<p>Hello everyone. I am a current undergrad student in North Carolina. I have been reading here a lot lately and have not posted but I feel that I need to speak up now. I will try to keep this as short as possible so please take the time to read it. </p>
<p>I started college four years ago out of high school and let’s just say it has been a waste of time. I have been to two universities and one community college. I have not accomplished anything and have made so many careless mistakes. I have changed my mind about my major several times and I have never been committed to any of them. At the age of 22, I am just now realizing how bad I messed up and starting to take school seriously. Despite this, I believe that I still have a chance and if I dedicate myself to my passions I can salvage my academic career and make something of myself that I can be proud of. And I do want to do that. </p>
<p>After considering every career I could see myself doing I recently decided that I would like to pursue some field of engineering. Originally I was pursuing a degree in Computer Information Systems but I talked myself out of an IT career. I have always been the most interested in science and technology of all kinds and their advancement. I am fond of all vehicles man has created, space exploration, computers, energy production among the many other amazing achievements of STEM workers. I am also interested in preserving the environment.</p>
<p>84jalpa’s post scares the hell out of me. I have been waiting for someone to respond to his post and no one has for a month. That scares me too. I have no way of verifying who he is, but what he said about engineering in this country makes plenty of sense to me. At first I was skeptical about what he wrote, but after looking a little further into the matter it appears the situation really is that bad. The American Engineering Association agrees with 84jalpa. On their homepage at [AEA</a> American Engineering Association](<a href=“http://www.aea.org%5DAEA”>http://www.aea.org) they discuss in detail about the surplus of STEM workers and their difficulty in obtaining and maintaining a legitimate career. They talk about how engineers are commonly under-utilized. The possibility of being washed out at 35-40 years old is frightening. They stress that something needs to be done now in order to save the engineering profession in America. I love this country but I don’t know if the government and corporations have our best interests in mind. </p>
<p>This is all extremely disheartening to me. I finally found what I want to do with my life and now it is looking like it would not be a wise decision to go into engineering. I do not want to let the job market influence my career choice but if I couldn’t find a quality job it would be a waste of time. The last thing I want to do is invest the large amount of time and money into an engineering degree only to be under-utilized with no room for professional or personal growth. I also don’t like how easy it seems it is to get locked into a certain specialty just by your experience and not be able to work in other areas if I wanted to or if necessary. </p>
<p>I am wondering whether or not I should heed the advice of 84jalpa and others who share his feelings. What do you guys think about what the AEA has to say? Is it really as bad as it seems? Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>Thank you for your time,
Steven</p>
<p>I have never heard of AEA and have doubts about how credible they are. They don’t cite sources other than other pages on their own site. Their pages are rife with typos. They only have a couple of chapters in regions with little engineering activity. There are other chapters that clearly have not been established but are cited anyway. They require US Citizenship to join. Really, it seems like an anti-foreign-engineering lobbying group more than anything else, so it is no surprise what position they take.</p>
<p>I also wouldn’t consider a single anecdote from an anonymous poster on the internet like 84jalpa to be a damning piece of evidence against your dream. You don’t know what field he is in or what unusual circumstances may or may not be surrounding his story. I could tell you plenty of other stories of engineers who have had long, fruitful careers at single or multiple companies.</p>
<p>Thanks for the response bone. While I agree with some of their viewpoints I noticed all the same things you did about the AEA and had reservations about their credibility. I just got scared for a moment.</p>
<p>Then there is the other side of the spectrum. I have found articles like this one [The</a> 10 Hardest Jobs To Fill In America - Forbes.com](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/03/hard-jobs-fill-leadership-careers-employment.html]The”>http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/03/hard-jobs-fill-leadership-careers-employment.html) that reek of propaganda aimed at persuading people that everything is fine and dandy. I am disgusted at all of this propaganda bull.</p>
<p>Forbes is a reputable source and their data, which they actually cite, comes from a survey conducted of over 2,000 companies out in industry. I would not call it propaganda. In general, qualified engineers are in demand.</p>
<p>Ok fair enough. When you say “qualified”, what does that entail? I am aware that most of the prominent employers are looking for a 3.0 GPA and above, as well as previous internship/co-op experience in that field.</p>
<p>I mean you have experience in the field that proves to the employer that you are capable of performing the job that you are applying for. It will vary depending on the job. The problem is that a lot of people these days (and I am not immune to this) feel entitled, so when they don’t get a job they think it must be some conspiracy or something, when in reality it is just that for some reason you didn’t convince the interviewer that you were the most qualified candidate.</p>
<p>There are plenty of engineering jobs out there, especially compared to most other jobs in this economy. You just have to figure out where you want to be and set yourself up to get there.</p>
<p>SaveEngineering, Do not believe everything you read on a forum. Honestly, I rarely post here anymore because half of the posts here are just not accurate. I’m not here to judge and I know we don’t know the circumstances of each individual, but I have to totally disagree with most of what 84jalpa said based on my experience.</p>
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<p>This is really not accurate. I know it depends on the job but most engineers that I know work pretty reasonable hours. In general, I would say that the average engineer works less hours than the average attorney, or accountant, or banker, etc.</p>
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<p>Again, in my experience, simply not true. Many engineers work in management within companies or other non-technical areas and if you are a qualified engineer, you should have no problems finding work in a technical capacity. I work with many companies that are always looking for qualified engineers.</p>
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<p>Again, I don’t know what experience this poster is drawing from, but in my experience, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. I know many engineers in many different industries and I do not know one that is currently unemployed. As boneh3ad said, companies are looking for qualified engineers.</p>
<p>Is engineering right for you? I don’t know but if you are willing to put in the effort to become an engineer, you can most definitely have a very successful career. Statistically, engineers out earn practically all other undergraduate majors throughout their careers and obtaining an engineering degree does not limit you to being a technical engineer. There are many career paths that an engineer degree can provide. Engineering degrees are highly-respected and in terms of an undergraduate degree, I can’t think of a more versitile major. Engineering majors can work in business related areas (and many do) but business majors cannot work as engineers.</p>