Are Engineering Jobs Hard to Find?

<p>I think for any occupation or industry, you are going to have disgruntled folks with chips on their shoulders. I work in a totally different field but I know a few folks that sound just like 84jalpa and their experience is so far from everyone else. </p>

<p>Search around and you will find tons of folks completely disillusioned in midlife, warning people not to become doctors, or lawyers, or PhDs, or investment bankers either. Every occupation has its positives and negatives, and people have hugely variable experiences in the same occupation: because they are different people, with different backgrounds, skills, experiences, and companies. And making their own personal attributions about their lot in life and believing it must be true for everyone. So one’s personal experience in a particular occupation does NOT describe an entire occupation. As an aside, I have not seen too many folks who are considered professionals who aren’t working lots of hours. When I teach executives (of a wide range of occupations and salaries), 90% will say they work somewhat in the evenings, usually catching up on their email.</p>

<p>Finally, it’s all relative. If not an engineer, then what instead? Which occupation only requires an undergrad, involves a strict 9 to 5 with your choice of location, has better employment and career prospects and as good of a salary for everyone (or most people) majoring in it? And even if there is one, would you be good at it or enjoy it?</p>

<p>The problem is this forum seems to attract those disgruntled workers, haha.</p>

<p>I sincerely appreciate all of your advice!</p>

<p>Most of what 84jalpa says is true, you may disagree based on your OWN experience that things are not so bad, but if you look at the whole picture, engineering really is in decline. I consider myself a “qualified” engineer, have a Professional License and passed my EIT exam 30 years ago. Yet I have been out of a job for two years now despite having both U.S. and Canadian citizenships and looking in both countries. Age is certainly a factor—most companies do not want to add a 54 year old to their payroll. Also, most companies do not need a person with 30 years experience. Four or five years is usually enough and the person is then still young enough to get some mileage out of. When manufacturing is being off-shored, where do you think the engineering goes? Anyone out there think more engineers are going to be hired in North America while operations are being set up in China or India? Good luck with that logic.</p>

<p>Yes, because all engineering positions are tied to the manufacturing location…</p>

<p>Give me a break.</p>

<p>By design you didn’t get computer science degrees? Really? From family in IT working with individuals without solid comp. sci. backgrounds, I can tell you that they call you “pretenders.”</p>

<p>I’ve no doubt that some older engineers have trouble finding jobs in this economy. We’ve all heard those stories in the news about engineers with 25 or 30 years of professional experience who have been searching for jobs unsuccessfully for two years or more. Those stories scare me, too. But I have to wonder – how much of that has to do with the cut-throad, “use em and lose em” nature of the tech industry and how much of it has to do with the individuals themselves?</p>

<p>Growing up, my best friend’s dad had some sort of tech job at Boeing. As I got older and started contemplating a career in science and engineering, I began to learn more about what my friend’s dad did for a living. My understanding is that he was a kind of database administrator and he had been maintaining some database of theirs forever (or as long as I had known him, anyway, which was a pretty long time). Years later, after I had started college, I went to visit him at his house and he was excited to show me this new thing that he had been learning – HTML. Now this was probably in the early 2000s so HTML was hardly new by then. Nevertheless, it was the first new thing he had taught himself in a long time and he seemed really jazzed about it. That was when I started to realize that he had become an obsolete engineer. He had been complacent at his boring job for too many years, and now he was excited about learning something that the average 9th grader had long ago mastered. I don’t recall him ever studying or learning anything before then, and when I think back about him, I mostly just remember him sitting on his leather couch for hours on end, watching cable TV (he had like a million channels).</p>

<p>Since I started working in the industry myself, I have seen this complacency repeating itself among my former classmates. I know several guys who work as web programmers at small web companies, still doing the same PHP + Apache that they’ve been doing for the last 5 or 6 years, not learning anything new, not challenging themselves, not keeping up to date with new technologies, and instead, they’re more interested in becoming mini real-estate moguls (like every other delusional Californian). I look at their bookshelves and they hardly have any textbooks or technical books or journals. Sometimes, I get the feeling that they know even less about web technologies than I do (RESTful Web Services? What’s that?) even though I’ve never even worked as a web programmer.</p>

<p>I recall my first interview after I graduated. It was for a “programmer/analyst” position at a company that sold software services to small and medium sized financial institutions. As part of the interview process, I had to sit down and talk with a team of their developers. They were older guys most of whom had been with the company for 15+ years, and they were all really nice guys, but I realized fairly quickly that I didn’t want the job. These guys were basically maintaining old, legacy software written in some archaic language few programmers have ever heard of, and it was an obvious dead end. Part of the job description was fixing bugs in the software, so I asked them what tools they use to identify bugs; if they use a graphical IDE or perhaps a command line debugger like GDB. The response I got was, “uh… well… we just put prints statements in there.” Later, I politely turned down the offer, but I refered a friend of mine who had struggled a lot in school and was having a difficult time finding a job. I figured he could work there for a while until he’s able to land a more interesting job. My friend got the offer and still works there, almost 6 years later. Sometimes, when I see him, I suggest to him that it might be time to start looking for a new job, or at the very least, it might be good for him to start a project of his own outside of work. He always agrees, but to my knowledge, he hasn’t acted on that advice yet. It’s understandable – he gets a steady paycheck every two weeks and he has plenty of spare time to pursue his many hobbies when he’s not working.</p>

<p>Recently, that friend told me about some puzzling drama at the company. Apparently, the leadership expressed interest in moving to a Java platform, but was met with great resistance by the developers. Moving to Java, the developers complained, would force them to learn a whole new language! When I heard this story, I thought it was preposterous. Most software engineers enjoy learning new languages and often do it in their spare time. And besides… who doesn’t know how to program in Java these days? What will happen to these guys if this company ever implodes? Will they be able to find jobs? What company wants to hire a senior engineer and pay a senior engineer’s salary to someone who has been working on non-challenging and outdated stuff for the last 15-20 years? If they’re really lucky, maybe they can find a job at another company doing the exact same thing, but that isn’t likely to happen.</p>

<p>All of us try to get into good schools and earn high marks in order to compete for jobs, but the truth is that it doesn’t stop after graduation (or certification or whatever). I am still fairly early into my career so I admit that I may not know what I’m talking about, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the horror stories you hear about are coming from engineers who were far too complacent for far too long, and as a result, have lost their competitive edge. What will my former classmates do, the webprogrammers who don’t bother to keep up with emerging technologies – in their own domain, no less – if they lose their cushy jobs? Even worse, what will they do if the lose their jobs 10 years from now? I can totally see them being interviewed by a reporter, talking about how they’ve been looking for work for two years with no luck, despite having years of experience.</p>

<p>I’m not making any assumptions about the folks on this thread who have expressed frustration with the job market. Obviously, I don’t know their personal situtations. I’m only expressing my own opinion about some of the things I’ve seen, and there’s a good chance my opinion will change as I get older. Also, I’m mainly talking about software engineers since I know less about what things are like for engineers of other disciplines.</p>

<p>Really insightful anecdotes. I can’t imagine a software engineer - any engineer, really - who doesn’t stay abreast of recent trade and research directions and investigate interesting technologies, at least to become conversant in them. That being said, trying to keep up with everything is a fool’s wager… a new language/framework/paradigm every couple of months is reasonable and should keep you near the cutting edge for employment. Of course, having a job that entails doing this is best.</p>

<p>Wow Mokonon, right on the money with that one. </p>

<p>Couldn’t have put it better, that is what I am realizing after my first year in industry… </p>

<p>As an engineer I thought I would be working on new developments, not maintaining legacy systems. (a.k.a “keep the lights on”)</p>

<p>Can you start internships in high school?</p>

<p>Name any industry where a 54 year old in this economy, who isn’t already in senior management, is not going to have a problem finding a job. That’s a sad fact and I really feel for those unemployed in this age group, position, but tells you nothing about whether kids should major in engineering.</p>

<p>I have never tried to talk anyone out of going into software engineering, but there are a few things I would recommend, especially if you’re unsure about it (e.g. you think you might want to do something else, but are attracted to the money):

  • [<em>]Don’t go deeply into debt. If you can get a full-ride scholarship from a decent college or university, take it instead of borrowing money to go to a “better” school.
    [</em>]Take advantage of internships that are in areas related to your career interests.
    [<em>]Get a senior project and/or contribute to open-source projects to get visibility in the software field.
    [</em>]Have some kind of contingency plan if you can’t get a job after graduation. You might have to try to start your own business, for example.
    [<em>]Be prepared to learn new technologies periodically throughout your career, unless you luck into a lucrative niche.
    [</em>]Save and/or invest wisely. Have enough money saved up so you can go at least two years without employment.
    [<em>]The older you get, the more replaceable you’ll be (unless you luck into a lucrative niche within which you are a recognized expert). Be prepared to be let go from jobs you’ve held for a while.
    [</em>]Be prepared for times when you may be out of work for a while. You may have to retrain yourself in a different (sub)field of software engineering, or interview a lot before you get a position with a company that is a good fit both for you and the employer.

YMMV</p>

<p>^ Seems like this advice applies to anything… if anything, the only point I’d emphasize for software engineering, based on my experience, is that learning new technologies (in the broad sense of the word) isn’t something you should do periodically throughout your career to stay successful… honestly, I think learning a brand new framework, language, paradigm, toolkit, etc. once every 2-3 months is a recipe for success. Try to learn 10 new technologies in a 40 year career, and it’ll be no wonder that you’re expendable.</p>

<p>

A 54-yo doctor or pharmacist will not be having any problems finding a job in this economy.</p>

<p>Now you are assuming that any of us could stand to be a doctor or pharmacist. I would hate me life if I had chosen that path.</p>

<p>too much school to be a doctor. I dont wanna graduate at 30 and have no life/family -.-</p>

<p>I have no problem with too much school (getting a Ph.D. after all), but I just wouldn’t want that kind of life that a doctor leads and the schooling is so memorization-based. Yuck.</p>

<p>

What if you’re under or unemployed as an engineer until you’re 30? Then you’d have no life, no family AND no money…</p>

<p>Just because you are under/unemployed doesn’t mean you won’t have a life or a family. Just no money. Out of the three, money is the least important of those for me.</p>

<p>Sure it would be bad to be an underemployed or unemployed engineer till 30 but compared to a doctor your educational debt would be tiny. Most engineers at 30 have no family of their own anyway but at least have an income with a manageable debt load.</p>