<p>On their website they stat "There are no quotas or limits for international students. All students are considered in the same pool, regardless of citizenship or the school they attend. A student's chances for admission and financial aid are not affected by citizenship or by the location of the school which the student attends." What is your experience on this? Is there some sort of catch, because I frankly doubt that they accept a number of International students equivalent to the percentage of qualified applicants they represent (but rather, a much lower number). Comments?</p>
<p>Note: this is in no way intended as a "flame" or diffamation of any sort. It is the result of real, personal stress and anxiety of mine (as an International student).</p>
<p>Harvard is need-blind for internationals, but that in no way suggests that admission for International students is as easy as it is for American ones. They would obviously like to keep the number of Internationals on campus below a certain set percentage of it's student body; even if it means rejecting a qualified International applicant to maintain the structure of the student body. "Need-blind" does not mean that they'll take you in if you're qualified enough; it means that if they take you, money won't be much of an issue. </p>
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A student's chances for admission and financial aid are not affected by citizenship or by the location of the school which the student attends
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<p>This is obviously not true. The scores and GPAs of the International admits are a notch better than those of domestic ones. Had this been true, Harvard wouldn't be asking you your ethnicity in your application.</p>
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They would obviously like to keep the number of Internationals on campus below a certain set percentage of it's student body
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<p>Unlike MIT, which has an explicit quota on internationals, Harvard claims not to do this. I agree with your later point that the internationals are even more amazing than the domestic enrolled students, but I don't think that is the result of a conscious quota.</p>
<p>My interviewer told me that Harvard loves internationals and the diversity they generally bring... however, there is one catch. According to him, if you're an international then your chances of admission shoot up dramatically but only on the condition that you speak English very (very) fluently. Just what he told me, it might not be the official position of Harvard.</p>
<p>Interviewers are not really that reliable, not always. I was not assigned a Harvard one and am still unclear of the reason, maybe there were no volunteers in my country. My MIT interviewer however told me that MIT had had a student body that was >50% international and that there were no quotas at all. I later found out that the quota was actually 8% and they even told it in their website.</p>
<p>gouchicago, I have to disagree to what you said. Need-blind DOES mean that they take you if you're qualified enough, no matter how much you can pay. That's what Harvard says:</p>
<p>^ You can't expect a college to say : "We aren't need blind at all, and we openly make it harder for Internationals."</p>
<p>Getting into Harvard is more difficult for an Int'l; need-blind has nothing to do with "why" they admit you. Need-blind only means that if they admit you, FA won't be a problem. As far as taking qualified people explicitly is concerned, if Harvard wanted to do that, they wouldn't ask you your race in your app. In the big hussle for admitting the jocks, the Americans, and maintaining diversity (even if that means turning down qualified Intl's if their population os burgeoning out of hand), you do need to sacrifice talent.</p>
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You can't expect a college to say : "We aren't need blind at all, and we openly make it harder for Internationals."
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<p>MIT is quite frank about saying that its explicit quota on internationals makes its harder for international applicants to be admitted. Other colleges are frank about being need-aware in admission. The claim of Harvard, Yale, and a few other colleges is that they are open to admitting as many international applicants as are competitive in their application pool each year. From some countries, that would imply students who have made phenomenal progress learning English as a second language, but the colleges don't claim to limit the number of international applicants they admit. I certainly believe that Harvard, Yale, and a few peers are totally need-blind in admitting qualified applicants and not worrying about the putative financial aid budget.</p>
<p>Here there is talk about English as a second language. Assuming the claim on its critical importance is true, then what would be the case for an international whose first language is English?</p>
<p>Nevertheless, Harvard and friends do indicate that Egnlish language profficiency is critical [e.g. Yale explicitly says something about the ability to understand flowing, "idiomatic" English.]</p>
<p>Also, being need-blind for the individual does not necessarily mean being need-blind for the population. That Harvard's endowment is large does not imply that it can be spent freely. The standard policy with large endowments, a policy almost universal among the universities that have made their information Google-able, is that investments are all in REAL properties. Hence a fiscal policy change CANNOT be implemented quickly [because real properties are not very liquid] and so Harvard may usually find itself with steady practical bounds for the enrollment of internationals - a population it does not receive any help with funding. Pulling millions of dollars out of your own pocket will affect your decision, regardless of how much money you have tucked away for future generations. Their net set of decisions will be affected within the bounds that they must limit themselves.</p>
<p>Thus I would guess Harvard's claim is more theoretical than a guarantee. I would read it as "YOUR ability to pay, and the ability of affiliated parties to pay, will not affect your personal decision." So this statement is not relevant to the argument about whether Harvard limits its internationals, and DE FACTO, Harvard does not admit internationals and domestics in nearly equal proportion.</p>
<p>Well, you have to understand that Harvard is an American institution, and obviously, its first priority is to raise and help nurture talented students that will remain in America. However, I can say for certainty that there is absolutely no quotas on international admissions. International students may have it harder in the sense that they would have to fulfill the same application requirements (SAT I, SAT II, etc.) and have all of their documents translated in addition to perhaps applying to schools within their home countries.</p>
<p>Harvard manintains need-blind admissions for EVERYONE (domestic, international, even illegal immigrants). I think our admissions officers are doing enough splitting hairs, trying to whittle down 27,500 applicants to approximately 1,950 admits this year without taking into consideration a family's financial circumstances.</p>
<p>@GeekNerd: What you say sound quite convincing, and you have a strong point. However, that is not what Harvard explicitly states. They state that international and domestic applicants are considered in the same pool, taking no regards to their citizenship in order to make decisions. They also state that they have no extra quotas whatsoever (except the one of overall students they may admit, of course) This implies that at Harvard, being an international would not affect your individual decision nor a collective decision on internationals, nationality is not supposed to be a factor at all! And that is what this thread was originally about. I guess I made a misake in using the term, "international-blind", it does not explicitly have anything to do with financial aid, but on the importance of nationality towards decisions. </p>
<p>@xjayz: I agree in that the Harvard admissions officers are doing enough, I just asked about the validity of their statement. And I am sorry to say what you said about Harvard being an American institution is quite irrelevant. I am an american, and will stay in America, but I still qualify as Internatinal. Why? Because I am not a U.S. American, that is, I am no citizen of the United States of America, which is a country, and happens to be where Harvard is located. (as opposed to America, which is a continent.)</p>
<p>Edit: I am sorry if this sounds rude, but it just makes me too angry everytime someone missuses America or American, referring solely to the USA. It is not intended as a personal attack towards xjayz, it is just a clarification of the term.</p>
<p>goens - you are going to be pretty miserable the whole time you are in the US if it makes you "too angry" every time someone misuses America or American. Because you are going to hear it pretty much every day, often several times a day.</p>
<p>Most people in the US know that all citizens of both North and South America can be properly called "Americans," but the use of the term in a narrower sense to mean US citizens has been widespread both in the US and many other countries for over 200 years. The term "American" just rolls off the tongue a lot smoother than does say "United Statian" or "United States of American." Those other terms will never catch on.</p>
<p>Most people will regard you as making a pedantic argument based on a technicality and deliberately choosing to be offended when no offense was intended. So my suggestion if you come to school in the US is to lighten up and go with the local customs. You'll enjoy your stay a lot more.</p>
<p>A linguist has pointed out that a citizen of the United States of Mexico is usually called a "Mexican," so it is not too illogical for a citizen of the United States of America to be called an "American." And inasmuch as the United States is the highest-population country in the Western Hemisphere, a plurality of Americans in the broad sense are citizens of the United States, and their influence on English usage will be substantial.</p>
<p>Back to the topic, Harvard also says something to the effect that they aim to craft the class per se. Thus, as they would obviously wish to develop a class reflecting American culture [US American culture, if you please], then they could simply say that selecting students to fit their vision results in selecting substancially more domestics than otherwise. Thus, even if
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They state that international and domestic applicants are considered in the same pool, taking no regards to their citizenship in order to make decisions.
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we still have the reality that Harvard is not effectively blind to origin, it doesn't have to be, it probably shouldn't be, and may not become so in the near future. </p>
<p>We know what they say, but it's that which is done that counts.</p>
<p>Edit: This is not an accusation of dishonesty; the reality is simply a little complicated by interests, motives and resources.</p>
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what would be the case for an international whose first language is English?
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<p>It's my impression that applicants from Canada (especially), Britain, Australia, Ireland, and other English-speaking countries fare very well in Harvard admission, as do citizens of other countries who somehow obtained their secondary education in the medium of the English language. Harvard is an English-medium college, and one of the major barriers to admission for brilliant students from some countries is the effort and expense of acquiring sufficient proficiency in English to be a strong applicant to Harvard.</p>
<p>I think that Harvard really, truly doesn't screen out internationals, but looks for people from all over the world who are outstanding students who would contribute to the residential community that is Harvard College.</p>
<p>gouchicago: I showed you the quote, need-blind means that whether you apply for financial aid has no influence on your decision and if you get accepted they'll make sure that money isn't an issue.</p>
<p>"You can't expect a college to say : "We aren't need blind at all, and we openly make it harder for Internationals." "</p>
<p>"Well, you have to understand that Harvard is an American institution, and obviously, its first priority is to raise and help nurture talented students that will remain in America"</p>
<p>I am an international but I intend to do exactly that: remain in America, get citizenship etc. I actually guess that a number of internationals that go to college in the US have similar plans so based on that I think it's unfair to favor US citizens. Also: they never really ask anywhere in the applications: do you intend to stay? That'd be a useful question. At least Harvard had something similar where you could tell them what you intend to do with your education. Well, I guess I went a little overboard there :D</p>
<p>I can expect it and that's what Duke UChicago Amherst Stanford Columbia etc. all do explicitly say! Just check their homepages!</p>
<p>Btw: I still believe that in general being an international is an advantage! All colleges say they want diversity etc., and especially if you're from a country that isn't already represented at the college, it's certainly something positive for your admission chances because then they're able to say: we have students from x+1 countries at our college (instead of x countries) However, if there are too many applicants from your country, it might start to become a disadvantage. And if you ask for financial aid, it really is a big disadvantage at most places, but not at Harvard I believe.</p>