<p>You all sound like a bunch of whining babies, take out your own loans and pay for it on your own! Jesus Christ, ask your parents to cosign if you have to, YOU sound like the selfish ones.. do you not understand how important retirement funds are? Why don't you look at most of the nation and see most of them are paying for their own college, get out of your little world and start living in the real world.</p>
<p>Earlier, my D was reading this thread and said she felt kind of bad that the OP was being bashed, and she asked me to read it and see what I thought...</p>
<p>First of all, on CC, as we all know, if one does not choose one's words carefully one immediately risks feeling the wrath of just about anybody on here. </p>
<p>Second, the OP asks a question, while worded unfortunately, goes to the heart of some important considerations--the soaring cost of education and the ability to pay/the communication between parents and their kids regarding the financial aspect of their education-- and is, therefore, a valid question and one that deserves some consideration. </p>
<p>Third, there is little info from the OP to go on in order for a reader to offer an informed and useful opinion. Many assumptions are being made about the OP and the OP's parents and their relationship. Why assume that the kid is a snot-nosed ingrate? So, he wants to go to Vandy--big deal. Lots of kids on CC want to go to HYP. Who knows why? Who knows what the history of his desire entails? Or, even if his parents ever told him he could apply and then later changed their minds...there are many possible scenarios.</p>
<p>My own gut reaction (again, colored by my own experience) is that $150,000 in FLA goes a lot further than $150,000 in NYC suburbs--but can I really judge their situation? No.</p>
<p>I have seen parents tell their kids that they could apply anywhere and then burst their proverbial bubbles--there are kids that actually would be miserable at a state school. I know a few. Attending some SUNY's would be just like another 4 years of HS to some kids where I live. For others, it's just what they want and hope for. "De gustibus non est disputandum," as they say.</p>
<p>Sure, it's possible that a kid could get a lot of merit aid or a scholarship at some privates that would make it as affordable as a state school, but really, parents need to be clear about what they will pay. Kids don't really know much about their parents finances and expenses. They should have a scenario for each school that a kid applies to that would allow them to attend. That is what I did with my D. There were some schools she really loved, but I told her straight out that going to these would involve massive debt for her that I couldn't help her with even if I wanted to. In the end, she understood how things worked and thankfully ended up with her desired outcome and no loans.</p>
<p>My parenting style has always been to sacrifice to provide what I can for my D. When she was born, I promised her that I would do everything that I could to give her a good life and ensure her future. She is my only child and I am a single parent living in an expensive area (because of the great public schools) with no financial help from the ex. So, I don't care that I've worn the same sneakers for five years and drive a 10 year old car or that my dinner occasionally consists of what she left on her plate. Some people that know me think I'm the best parent they know and are amazed at the job I've done raising my D on my own, and, of course, there are others who think that I am crazy. My D is the least entitled and materialistic person you could ever meet. She is generous, humble, empathetic, and always willing to help anyone out. Her impulse was to feel sorry for the OP because she got the outcome she wanted and he didn't. Mine too.</p>
<p>I know parents who send their kids to SUNY because it's cheaper and they don't want to compromise their lifestyle--it's their prerogative. I know parents who have 3 kids each at $50K privates and have taken out loans. I know parents who can afford to pay but refuse. I know parents who will only pay for a private if it's an ivy. There are all types of people in this world. How can you judge any of them? You can only do what feels right to you. </p>
<p>Unfortuanately, kids, you can't choose your parents--I know that all too well! There really is nothing the OP can do but abide by what his parents offer him. If he really wants Vandy, he'll have to figure out a way to pay for it. Is it worth it? No one else can decide that for him.</p>
<p>This is a stressful time for kids and parents--sometimes people say things out of frustration that they don't really mean. Why not cut them some slack?</p>
<p>Here, here, BAfromBC. As a parent who frequently reads these posts and enjoys all that I learn from them, I do have one pet peeve. It's the adults (us parents) who are often far too harsh and judgmental to the kids who post here. Sometimes I think we all should reflect on our own teen years. Did we all have sound, reasoned financial understanding of the complexities of making a living and saving for all of the future expenses we might have? Did we all always agree with our parents? :) </p>
<p>I agree that we should all just cut the kids a little slack, here.</p>
<p>Goru, I AM remembering my own teen years. I would not have dreamed of second guessing my parents' spending choices. I made my own money as early as possible. I bought a piece of c*** station wagon from my McDonald's wages. I never even asked my parents "how much" they'd pay for school. I went to a school I could afford. </p>
<p>I am not saying that's the way it should always be (it's not in my home). However, you brought it up ... that's how it was for me as a teen.</p>
<p>Parents should not stint on love because it's a renewable resource. We have an infinite supply.</p>
<p>If decisions are made with love and the highest good of everyone in mind many different decisions are fine.</p>
<p>If decisions are made out of narcissism, selfishness, gross materialism, need to control, yes, and even ignorance, they are not good or fair decisions and violate a parent's responsibility toward his/her child.</p>
<p>This goes for the parent who forces the kid to go to Harvard when he/she really wants to go Swarthmore because a LAC has always been his/her dream, so money is not the only issue.</p>
<p>When money is used as a weapon in a psychological war or to feather a parent's nest at the expense of the child (isn't a nest for children) I think there's a problem. When a parent lovingly explains financial situation to kids at the beginning of the college search and helps build a list that meets those options then there's no fault/no foul.</p>
<p>This is not a one size fits all situation, and children usually can tell if parents are operating out of love or other less attractive psychological states. And yes, a child is shafted if the parent doles out power/control/selfishness. No, the child isn't shafted if the parent offers love.</p>
<p>My parent's income is nearly double the OP's. I hope to attend Cornell University in the fall and I am perfectly happy with their 10-12K annual contribution. The rest I will eventually pay back in loans.</p>
<p>Just because your parents have a relatively high income doesn't mean they don't have any other expenses. My parents get taxed up the wazoo, they have a mortgage and car payments, my brother goes to a private high school.</p>
<p>You should be happy you're getting something. Many get nothing.</p>
<p>parenting philosophies vary greatly and all have merit---we, parents and kids need to respect each other's views and also respect the complexity in all families. I am a single parent and though more challenging--I proudly hold my own. My own experience as a studet was that my parents were scraping by and had no means to help--so I went to a city university/lived at home--moved out at graduation and then took loans out to go to a SUNY graduate school paying off loans for 10 yrs--I was very independent and have become a successful professional in a field I love and find meaning in. however I will say I wish I had more choices/challenging college experience and although it really was okay for me it created in me a desire to be proactive in saving for college so I would be able to put my kids thru college--while still needing and qualifying for small amt of aid. my choice to do this is based on my personal values and I have conveyed this dedication to do so to my kids--they in turn have worked very hard in hs as all of you other students have--and knew they needed to apply to several colleges, reach, match and safeties, knowing that once acceptances and fin aid offers arrived they would look at each one as if it were a shiny gift bag--with amazing varieties of opportunities within them. it was their task to see each bag for what it held and gratefully pull out each gift, ie. fin aid/merit aid/small supportive environment, challenging top school etc. and weigh the most important parts based on their indl needs. it seems the op's parents presented a balanced offer to provide support with limits. my s knew that as well and was very fortunate to be offered a full ride at a top lac--and he gets what a valuable oppty it is and feels honored to be offered it. he has chosen to go there and in turn he also knows that I will give him the college savings put aside for college towards grad school--he'll still need loans or scholarships but it will help. This awareness is partly how he made his choice--he feels supported and excited, but most importantly for us is while this application is stressful for all how we worked thru it has strengthened our relationships, as he saw how much devotion I felt and a true desire to give this to him and we have talked so much thruout about what is really important in life-- how one makes their own dreams come true by knowing who they are and what they need, ie in type of college to learn, grow feel secure but also in life--will that career in engineering feed your need to connect with people etc. I hope that this support and how we handled this process is something he packs in his bag along with his textbooks and takes with him as he leaves home and sets out on the world. He knows he has to continue to work hard in college as I do each day in my work to be successful and to have further choices--I find as a parent its actually a joy to be able to give to my kids and see them playing their part in developing into healthy, bright and loving human beings. I hope kids who are somewhat at odds with their parents (and vice versa) realize now that fixing that -- and developing understanding and respect for each other is really more important in the bigger picture than what school one attends. good luck to all...</p>
<p>no one who replies to my posts pays attentions to notes and disclaimers that my suppositions apply only to those who they, well, apply. </p>
<p>i'm not talking about the op now, as i have already said. i'm talking theoretically about people who don't have other expenses, who are sound for retirement, and still refuse to pay. </p>
<p>and you know what? i am judging other peoples actions and views concerning this. I'm not judging reality. Of course it's going to happen, and I happen to think it's very wrong.</p>
<p>ClaySoul: I did take your posts into account when I wrote my reply. Please see exactly how I worded it. I had your posts in mind.</p>
<p>"I know you from old" (another thread) as Shakespeare said, and I have respect and compassion for your situation.</p>
<p>lindz126: Wonderful approach, philosophy, outcome. Hm. A full ride to a top LAC? That's an unusual situation. You guys are lucky all around. I know my kids would love to have money left over for professional school.</p>
<p>Again, Shakespeare: "The gifts that God gives." -- all different. (Disclaimer: For me God is a metaphor. Not a believer.)</p>
<p>Your bright, shiny bag metaphor -- lovely.</p>
<p>I think of life that way sometimes. Sometimes we pull out a present. Sometimes a lump of coal. Just the way it is.</p>
<p>ClaySoul, I, too, have taken your posts into account. You don't like that some parents won't give their kids whatever the kid wants (in regards to college). Your position is that they should. Why? "Just because they can" is not a good answer. Neither is "To make their kids happy." Happiness is great; however, many parents want more than just happiness for their kids.</p>
<p>If you have a five-year-old, pick him up, and put him in a tree, he may delight in being there, but if he climbs up himself, he gets more than delight in the experience.</p>
<p>mythmom -- loved your thoughts about love-- </p>
<p>dare I say that should really be the reason we become parents and the reason we give...</p>
<p>that said each of us as parents chooses how to express that and hopefully also determines what our indl child needs. personally I think if the child is feeling entitled and the parent is somewhat witholding there is more going on than just college stuff--more parenting needed to address those kinds of issues. </p>
<p>some kids need more support than others, some need to learn more self reliance--I think its our job as parents to know what each of our individual children actually need, (not want) and then devotedly do our best with what we can provide to give that to them.</p>
<p>"parenting philosophies vary greatly and all have merit---we, parents and kids need to respect each other's views and also respect the complexity in all families."</p>
<p>This is where I have to part company with you, and with some others here. I simply don't agree that all parenting philosophies have merit. I think some of them are wrongheaded. It may be harsh to say so, but if you can't discuss it frankly on an anonymous forum, where else?
There have been a lot of posts criticizing the OP for an "entitlement" attitude, and there is some fairness to that, especially considering how the question was phrased. However, I guess I think there is a flipside to that, in that some parents seem to strongly feel that the money they have earned is theirs, and that what they choose to spend on their children's education is entirely up to them. I guess I don't feel that even the money I've earned is "mine" in this way--I consider it to be entrusted to me to use properly, which includes, I think, a responsibility to provide for my children. Of course, others are free to have a different philosophy, but I reserve the right to think and say that they are wrong about it.</p>
<p>I can't help but wonder why the decision to make a 200k dollar investment seems so hard for me and H, who have dozens of years of education, earning , and investments behind us, and it seems easier for some 18 year olds. Perhaps it is because we didn't think hard enough about our D actually being admitted to her "reach". We have a much better sense of the value of her other (fourteen ! UC's and "merit" searches) options. Me and H are probably of the "because we can" school of thought, but we are struggling with reassuring ourselves that it makes sense. It bears repeating that our parents could not /did not help us, that we had few peers that went to college, let alone parents that could pay,and that my H is still paying loans. For the students here, how does an 18 year old think about $200,000?. I'm sure its our fault, but I just can't believe my D has a sense of what an investment of this size means.</p>
<p>hunt-- I don't personally agree with those perspectives on parenting but if I listened to their choices it might have some merit. </p>
<p>If you read my entire post (I know it was long) you would have seen that I am devoted to making sacrifices to put all three of my kids thru college as a single parent. I agree completely with you that it is our responsibility to provide for our kids and I put my money where my mouth is -- we all also need to weigh what is best for our child, and the family. </p>
<p>(that does not mean witholding college funding to support one's lavish lifestyle--clearly narcississtic) but might include setting a monetary limit so that other children are also considered, so a parent can plan properly for medical needs and possible disability etc. we just never know what others are really going thru so I prefer to err on the side of giving folks the benefit of the doubt. and as shrinkrap states, it is hard to justify 200K expenditure when there are usually other options. I couldn't but also wouldn't spend that for a college education--as I wouldn't spend on designer $500 outfits. I'm just hoping we can actually learn from other perspectives ie. Owlice points out beautifully that encouraging self reliance is very important to her as a parent. I agree. so we really need to listen, synthesize our thoughts a bit. it's not all black and white. We can take from others on the boards and finetune our own understanding and choices.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap,
We've helped our kids get their heads around the idea of what $200,000 means by pointing out that it is MORE than the mortgage we took out to buy our 42-year old, utterly middle-class split-level house, which pales in comparison to the homes of many of their classmantes. </p>
<p>We're of the "it's our choice to help make this happen," but both kids also know that they have a role to play financially here, too. Those conversations started when they were old enough to get an allowance. They had to really want those Pokemon cards if they were willing to part with the allowance! (And, yes, their allowance was small enough that they <em>had</em> to save for a $10 pack of cards. They also learned to split the cost and share.) </p>
<p>We also use cost-sharing as a means of teaching them about financial realities. I'll spend $X for a pair of jeans for them. If they want something more upscale, they pay the difference. Nine times out of ten, they take the cheaper jeans without complaint. DS2 will occasionally "splurge" and go find the designer brand on sale. I smile when he triumphantly comes out of Old Navy with a great sweater for $5 (originally $30).</p>
<p>DH and I worry that we haven't done enough in the way of financial education with the guys, but we have never been shy about discussing why we are willing to do X, but not Y, and the various factors that drive our saving and spending habits. We haven't gotten much into specific numbers with them, but more the general values and principles. DH and I are pretty risk-averse, since both of us come from families that were always hanging off the financial edge of the cliff.</p>
<p>lindz126, I certainly believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt as to their particular situations, especially in real life. But while I think we should respectfully listen to other people explain and defend their philosophies, I find nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of them.
To just throw in another element here, I think some parents may not focus on just how their kids are working to excel academically, compared to what many of us did 20 or 30 years ago. I think a lot of our kids have a pretty strong work ethic, even if they aren't working for money. I think this should be factored in when considering what is needed to teach them about work, independence, etc.</p>
<p>Owlice, was I arguing anything? I was just showing you how the "self-reliance" garbage is a load of bull.</p>
<p>Your welcome for playing!!!</p>
<p>"If you have a five-year-old, pick him up, and put him in a tree, he may delight in being there, but if he climbs up himself, he gets more than delight in the experience."</p>
<p>Except the five-year-old won't be able to climb the same tree his parent could put him on. Instead of being able to climb the tree of Harvard, he'll end up climbing the tree of Penn State.</p>
<p>Great analogy there owlice, your simplification is astounding as well as "fallacious". Impressive.</p>
<p>I don't get it. Why would someone invest $50,000/yr in ivies for a $40,000 job in return where you can pay $15, 000 in-state tuition and get a $65,000 engineering job?</p>
<p>I thought education is an investment. Why aren't we thinking about ROI (Return on Investment)? Ramaswami said he would support his S to his fullest potential ("It is my obligation to raise a child educated totally to the max of his potential"), heck, how is that possible? There are just too many things to learn in life (assume that his S can't be a perpetual student on campus), along the way, his S must work and find a job to support his S's offspring. </p>
<p>Some of the posts here are really disingenuous. There are many ways to learn ( online and etc) and a parent do not have sacrifice to pay $50,000 to ensure S is learning.</p>
<p>^ Some would say education is not just about a "job", and much of the "learning" is from people, environment, and facilities. As good as our state system is, it's enviornment is VERY different from Duke. FWIW, I'd love for her education to include an experience that demonstrates that the world is not just one big California suburb.</p>