<p>And then there's the Jewish philosophy: Anything for education. Backpacking through Europe? Feh.</p>
<p>(And just like mythmom's analogies, one need not be Jewish to hold this philosophy, nor do all Jews hold it. Just like one does not need to be Jewish nor a mother, nor female even, to be a "Jewish mother".)</p>
<p>I just read my post and aside from cringing from the numerous typos, I'd like to add that there was a "protestant" component to my strategy.</p>
<p>I always told the kids that to go to a private they needed to be able to attend a school that offered more academically than state u. Bing and Stony Brook set the bar high, but not as high as UofMich or UVa, but had we lived in those states, they might have been thrilled to go there.</p>
<p>(I came to feel a bit differently as the process went on and I began to understand fit, LAC's etc, but this was my initial statement.)</p>
<p>Therefore, both of them worked their little tails off for the grades to be admitted to schools more selective and academically rigorous than our the top of our state system.</p>
<p>Therefore, they were both admitted to need-blind, meets 100% of your need institutions, which became very important after we suffered an academic reversal.</p>
<p>So, in a sense, they created their own scholarships.</p>
<p>I didn't know about too much about the merit money scene and didn't pursue it, though probably would if I had to do it again, just as an option.</p>
<p>But it worked out that they COULD have their hearts' desires without my selling a kidney (though I do joke about it sometimes.)</p>
<p>In the process I was inculcating the value important to me, academic success.</p>
<p>My H's parents stressed earning money and being self-sufficient. He had a paper route from 12 and provided his own money from then on. This was disastrous, IMO, because he viewed training for a profession as wasted money and immediately entered the work world after college and had a very lackluster employment history.</p>
<p>He started a business eventually with mixed results (see above) and in his fifties is earning an MFA. (This may never put him in another place in terms of employment but will, I think, improve his product as a photographer, or at least give him the confidence to book higher end jobs.</p>
<p>After reading through these posts for many days now, I would say to the OP (who has, I know, moved on) that you are only as "shafted" as you choose to feel. Some in your situation have received more from their parents and still feel like they got a bad deal, some have received less and felt thrilled. So, if you choose to feel "shafted", you will probably go on with negative feelings toward your school, your parents, your situation. This could make you bitter.</p>
<p>If you choose to feel blessed, you will be happier with your life overall.</p>
<p>I would recommend the latter, but the choice is yours.</p>
<p>(In thinking about this thread, I thought back to the specific circumstances that led me to my college -- not at all my top choice. Many of the circunstances were negative and beyond my control. But, I never felt like I got a bad deal from life. I never even considered feeling "shafted"....)</p>
<p>Great mythmom - it made me realize that I really come from a socialist perspective. Higher education is a right, not a luxury and should never be a hardship to the student or parent. Similar to K-12, public colleges should be free, and privates offer scholarships where they decide to whether for need or merit.</p>
<p>To the OP.
I feel for your situation. My parents have flat out refused to pay for any part of college because I fell short of their expectations in terms of college acceptances to schools they deem "worthy of paying for." This would not be so bad ... if my EFC wasn't 40k. So now I'm having to choose between my safety school which is offering me the best merit based aid their policies allow (with a summer job, I'd graduate debt free basically and a year early) and a non HYP Ivy which is making me pay my EFC. I want to study mathematical finance and the Ivy is located in NYC, so it's pretty much an easy call on which school is better. However, due to financial reasons, I don't know where I'm going yet. </p>
<p>So, I guess my point is, be glad they're paying for something. You can always work and pay off student loans and any help is help.</p>
<p>Aerable, I just saw that Columbia & Amherst are the non HYP Ivys you were accepted to. Your parents are really naive to believe that HYP is worth paying your EFC for, but Columbia & Amherst aren't. By that reasoning, <em>you</em> are being shafted imo.</p>
<p>There is a lot of press about helicopter parents and the self sacrifice many indulge in to the point of crippling their child. The focus on independence can has its price in development, as mythmom points out-underdeveloped potential. The following thoughts do not apply to mythmom's example. Her example just got me thinking about a psychodynamic phenomenon.</p>
<p>There has to be a careful balance of independence/dependence (financial included) in negotiating through our roles with our children. If a young person is encouraged too early to be independent, he/she runs the risk of becoming what therapists call "counterdependent", a situation where the individual goes over the top with demonstrating independence. The developmental neediness, denied the child through too early demands or expectations produce an individual who on the surface may appear mature and capable. Beneath the facade is an individual who is plagued with self doubt. In extreme cases, the individual becomes incredibly entitled, so much so he could be labeled narcissistic. In lesser cases, the person may be left with a feeling of emptiness or have trouble asking for assistance in the most basic way. Perhaps some of OP's bitterness is a consequence of a counterdependent defense?
Have fun with this loose idea!</p>
<p>aerable--don't get how your parents could think you "fell short of their expectations in terms of college acceptances" </p>
<p>that is sad to hear. I hope you find your way with this decision, but also that you recognize how proud you should be of yourself and your accomplishments--</p>
<p>hornet: You have described me to a T, the self-doubt, not the narcissism. Recently my mother made the comment that she stopped being my mother when I was eight. According to her, this was my doing. Yeah, right!</p>
<p>Mythmom-I know firsthand what you are talking about. I ended up in the hospital in college as the result of a bicycle accident and did not tell my parents as I wanted to handle the situation independently. Sadly, my behavior did not seem unusual to me (why bother parents). It took my roommate and boyfriend to point out to me that it was not normal for an 18-yr old not to tell mom and dad about the accident. I did end up telling them, not for support, but b/c I needed the health insurance info! </p>
<p>I may be going a bit over the top with my kids but I did not want them to lack a healthy sense of entitlement as I did.</p>
<p>Same here!</p>
<p>MattsMom: I guess maybe I am shafted; I was so sad I didn't even get angry. </p>
<p>If only college was free, then I could be happy and go to UChicago. But I'd be happy if I could just go to Columbia...
Does anyone know about ways to get more needbased aid? I talked to a few financial aid office people and apparently unless I get married or join the armed forces, I'm stuck with my parents' taxes determining my financial aid. Anyone know of any other ways?</p>
<p>
[quote]
There has to be a careful balance of independence/dependence (financial included) in negotiating through our roles with our children. If a young person is encouraged too early to be independent, he/she runs the risk of becoming what therapists call "counterdependent", a situation where the individual goes over the top with demonstrating independence.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Independence by steps, not abdication of the parental function ("go raise yourself") seems in order. My opinion is that if each step of greater independence comes when the child can appropriately handle the situation, then for many students the relationship in the college years with their parents is one of a joint venture to achieve a quality education.</p>
<p>No, not "sink or swim" for the student (financially or otherwise), but no longer "ask and yee shall receive." And, in practice, I think that means that the student's preference as to where to attend needs to be given very substantial weight so long as it is within the financial commitment limits set by the parents. Yes, I appreciate that "she who has the gold, rules" but that doesn't seem to foster the proper balance by the time the student graduates from high school.</p>
<p>One thought: if you push independence too much, the kids may think that YOU should be more independent when you need help moving into your assisted living facility.</p>
<p>Actually, I think the greatest gift a parent can give a child is to not be financially dependent on the child so that the now adult child must choose between supporting his or herself and their spouse and perhaps assisting their children, on the one hand, and paying the expenses of the aged parent.</p>
<p>For that reason, I can't support the idea of we will pay for whatever school the student chooses, no matter how it impacts the parents financially.</p>
<p>07DAD: I really think it depends on the student. Some are early bloomers, some late. I think when we have a child who excels at something we think our policies created their success. It may be true, it may not be.</p>
<p>Independence is very hard for my S. D is much better at it. Although he was mostly nursed, whenever he had to have a bottle, or when he weaned himself and always had a bottle, he dropped it on the floor. He would only drink if I (or his dad or sis) held it.</p>
<p>I was afraid he had some neurological/muscular disease. He did -- stubborness and fear. Nothing would get him to hold that bottle. It was a battle of wills, and I must admit that his is stronger than mine. So I eventually held the bottle.</p>
<p>Because of FA his school is doable financially; he did all the work of his application, but just barely. He didn't need to be coached, just reminded, especially through the process of his audition tapes.</p>
<p>He is growing, but slowly. He is young in his grade, and now he just barely 18. Yeah, I could let him flop and learn, but he's so laid back he'd probably just live at home and go to local U. Okay, but then he'd rely on me even more.</p>
<p>So, S would not be where 07DAD describes at the end of HS. On the other hand, he is doing EMT training to help others. He also composes really beautiful music.</p>
<p>So, yes, he is not as independent as he could be, but I know that will come. He is going to be incredible; actually he already is. He's generous and creative. Independence is VERY important, but it's just one value. Right now we're still collaborators; someday I will just be a spectator. I have patience.</p>
<p>Aerable: I am pretty sure if you live independently for a year and your parents don't take you as a deduction, that the fin'l aid office would take your return in regards to financial aid. Your parents would have to agree not to claim you this year (2008) in order for you to use your tax return (for tx year 2008 - filed beginning of 2009) assuming you were able to defer admission until 2009.</p>
<p>Here's one for the elderly. My mother in law has the resources to maintain independence. She is now living with us because she was lonely. I guess I am a soft touch from both ends. However, we do not know in what way we will need our children (in my mother-in-law's case it is physical not fiscal). She was accepting of my husband's long path through college. he is accepting of her needs as an 85 yr old widow who would rather be with family than a retirement village.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Aerable: I am pretty sure if you live independently for a year and your parents don't take you as a deduction, that the fin'l aid office would take your return in regards to financial aid. Your parents would have to agree not to claim you this year (2008) in order for you to use your tax return (for tx year 2008 - filed beginning of 2009) assuming you were able to defer admission until 2009.
[/quote]
No this is not the case. For financial aid purposes it does not matter whether you are claimed as a dependent for tax purposes or if you are self supporting. You must be aged 24 or over (or some other exceptions such as married, a veteran) to be independent for financial aid. When you complete FAFSA there is a list of dependency questions starting with the age - unless you can answer yes to one question you are a dependent - it is not up to the discretion of the financial aid office (except *very *rare overrides with missing parents, proof of abuse etc - parents will not pay is not something that can be used as an override - there are strict rules the financial aid officer must follow).</p>
<p>Thanks swimcats - important info I was unaware of - seems a bit unfair.</p>