<p>To be clear, I am saying in the above that this is only half the story. When you compare strong students interested in technical fields with the finances not being a problem, I think most of those schools would not be that attractive in comparison. For basically all of the batch of acquaintances I have from CA that qualifies as highly talented, Duke, NW, Georgetown (all except for one exception for the last), Cornell were not even in the running. Really for most of them, it was Berkeley if it wasnāt Stanford or MIT. Admittedly Cornell has great engineering, but the attitude was who wants to go there when the engineering here is as it is, and the weather is nice and itās not in the middle of nowhere.</p>
<p>What country/region are you talking about? I could care less because I do not plan to EVER set my foot outside of US other than traveling purposes. </p>
<p>Regardless, there is a BUNCH of Asians here at Cornell from Korea, Hong Kong, China, Japan, and also some Europeansā¦ from England, etc who tell me that Cornell is considered to be top 10 schools in America, if not in the world. The Asians particularly are obsessed with āIvyā brand names. And, why would these Asians think any less of Cornell, which is an Ivy, over a state school, although a respectable one, like Berkeley??</p>
<p>Cornell is full of Berkeley rejects?? hahaā¦ I am afraid the reverse is true in reality.</p>
<p>Those department rankings donāt mean jack at the undergraduate level. The department rankings have to do with research output, professorās research, and the overall reputation of the faculty. If you are a prospective Ph.D student, then it should be relevant.</p>
<p>But, as an undergraduate, you should try to find a school that is stronger OVERALL. Or, find a school that is a better fit. Brown and Dartmouth does not have many departments ranked in top 10, yet, the student body at these two schools are only marginally weaker than HYP students and significantly stronger than UCB students. </p>
<p>After getting a well-rounded education at these ivies surrounded by bight students in small sizes, better advising, and better academic environment, these Ivy students should be well prepared for employment, elite professional school placement, grad school, etc. After all, the students at the Ivies fare significantly better at getting into top grad schools compared to students at schools like UCB, UMich, Georgia Tech, etcā¦ that have āstrongā departments, but not necessarily āeliteā student body and āeliteā undergraduate program on par with Ivies/ top privates.</p>
<p>āBut, as an undergraduate, you should try to find a school that is stronger OVERALL.ā</p>
<p>But isnāt that what Berkeley is? This is shown in the ranking of the departments:</p>
<p>Rankings- many undergraduate departments rank in the top 10 and 35 of 36 graduate programs rank in the top 10 in their fields. </p>
<p>Key rankings:
i. English ā 1st, tie
ii. Art History ā 3rd
iii. Philosophy 4th
iv. Biochemistry & Molecular Biology ā 4th
v. Neuroscience- 9th
vi. Engineering
Civil Engineering ā 2nd
Chemical Engineering ā 3rd
Industrial Engineering- 2nd
Mechanical Engineering ā 3rd
Biomedical Engineering- 8th
vii. Physical Sciences & Mathematics
Chemistry- 1st
Mathematics ā 1st , tie
Statistics/Biostatistics- 1st, tie/3rd
Computer Science ā 3rd
Physics- 3rd, tie
viii. Social & Behavioral Sciences
Sociology ā 3rd
Political Science- 2nd
History ā 2nd
Economics- 7th</p>
<p>Graduate ranking is pretty important I think; that means you are taught by high ranking faculty and very qualified GSIās.</p>
<p>What year are you, LazyKid, and do you plan on attending graduate school? This is the kind of logic people like to circulate around on something like CC, but really misses the point of what I was saying.</p>
<p>Iām not talking about rankings ā I donāt even look at them or care about them. I can actually compare and contrast the faculty in the areas I am interested in, interest-wise, strength-wise in different areas, and the like. </p>
<p>Graduate strength (I refrain from saying ārankingā) is in no way irrelevant to choice of undergrad school. It may not be important to some, but it is important to others. For instance, someone who would want to pursue graduate study some day would easily benefit from sampling what a strong school has to offerā¦after all, having tasted the good stuff in a broad number of categories is one sure way to know what to specialize in. In fact, one of the reasons some of those who matriculate at MIT do so is that thereās really only so much of a difference between the undergraduate and graduate programs ā the students differ, but many of the resources can be shared, certainly including the faculty. </p>
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<p>Iām unimpressed with the eliteness of any schoolās student body. Most I know who went to Harvard, MIT, Brown, Stanford, etc are just like an average ārather goodā student at Berkeley. There are probably fewer of the weak kinds at those schools, but I donāt see why youād care, because the strong students tend to stick together in classes, research and projects anyway. Iāve worked with people who graduated from wild international schools and are incredibly smart and talented here, and the so-called eliteness you speak of is pretty much a jokeā¦</p>
<p>LazyKid, unless youāre from SGV suburbs, I canāt understand where your lack of humor and more importantly, your lack of perspective comes from. Top 10 privates offer more resources per student, sure, but that doesnāt mean they offer better education. Berkeleyās highest ranked departments are definitely on par with other top universities ā thereās no denying that. Sure, there will be those that turn down Berkeley for Cornell because Cornell is an Ivy. That gives no merit to your implied claim that Cornell offers better education than Berkeley. Hell, there will be kids that turn down Brown or Columbia for Colgate because Colgate is smaller. Does that mean Colgateās education is better than Columbiaās or Brownās? No one is saying that Berkeley isnāt a huge school, but it is not lacking in opportunity. The difference is that no one at Berkeley will serve it on a silver platter ā opportunity is there for those who seek it. </p>
<p>Also, Iām very well aware of the type of academics Cornell offers. I would say that Cornell sciences are of the same cadre, which makes me think it is the east coast equivalent of Cal. </p>
<p>Thereās a clear reason for it, and Iām going to assure you I think itās basically stupid, meaning I agree with the heart of your point if you think one can choose either of these schools and have wonderful resources.</p>
<p>Asians can be rankings-centered, and Berkeleyās technical fieldsā rankings are basically only matched by Stanfordās and MITās. This is probably the reason for their glorification outside the U.Sā¦ Inside the U.S., the Ivy name carries more weight, so most would consider the Ivy more prestigious.</p>
<p>I think both views are basically ridiculous, and one should choose based on undergraduate fitā¦but taking into account all Iāve said about how undergraduate fit can actually involve departmental strength, not just overall undergraduate body strength. It can involve other things too, like student culture. Further, location is another factor ā some CA students choose Cornell to leave CA. Fair enough to me, Cornellās a great school and if theyāre sure they considered the options, theyāre probably going to be happy.</p>
<p>Can we just agree that whichever poster might have commented that Berkeleyās just better than Cornell was wrong? Is there anything else you feel should be addressed on this matter? Because really, I know what Iām talking about, and am in favor of people ending up wherever they see fit after due considerationā¦I donāt want to draw this discussion out on the basis of someone elseās insulting comment when I respect your school already.</p>
<p>I want to write a comment here, to hopefully avoid the standard (CC nonsense) response ārankings of faculty donāt matter as an undergraduateā¦ā and note a few points that actually DO matter. </p>
<p>First, high ranking facultyās letters mean more, period. </p>
<p>Second, a big school with strong faculty is an incredible resource to students. Beyond depth, there is breadth of focuses, and scholarly people can alert an open mind to very many things very quickly. I have seen two different professors in roughly the same field of study but different points of view on the subject deliver startlingly different presentations of the subject, to the point where I just read the book for oneās course, and really adored the lectures for the otherās, and will remember what they said from then on out. This happens on a small scale at all schools, but a school with breadth of excellence is very special to an undergraduate.</p>
<p>I donāt see where the fascination over the Ivies comes from. HYP - I understand. Pennās Wharton, sure. But outside of that circle, none of them come to mind at first (not saying that they are bad schools, but surely Caltech or Harvey Mudd trumps nearly all of the Ivies when it comes to engineering and the sciences, not to mention the relatively strong focus on liberal arts at HMC). </p>
<p>I feel a lot of it depends on your major though. For econ or business or finance, Wharton or Dartmouth seem to be stronger. For physics or math, maybe Harvard, Princeton, or Berkeley. So when you have these debates weāre lacking a lot of context. No one is going to pit the lower Ivies against Berkeley EECS - most would say only Stanford and MIT have game. For another major, it could be the complete opposite and Cornell could dominate over Berkeley.</p>
<p>^
I think itās just a broad discussion of who would choose Berkeley over an Ivy. And of course, one of the first things mentioned is what your major is. I mean thatās the unestablished rule lol. But say you are undecided. You might like engineering but you may want to do something else too. Would you still choose Berkeley?</p>
<p>diversity, weather/location, international reputation</p>
<p>I have family outside the US, and while even the least educated know about UC Berkeley, there are a few people who donāt know what MIT is or make the naive statement āisnāt UC Berkeley much better than MIT?ā</p>
<p>For all the ivies, they tend to be strong in particular subjects and weak in others. The same applies to UC Berkeley, but the sheer size tends to cover. At the end, it just comes down to the major.</p>
<p>For example, Iām an EECS major, and while itād be a difficult choice between Berkeley and MIT (close to home / nice weather vs. east coast / lots of snow), itād be no question that Iām not interested in HYP - theyāre just not known for their CS programs, if they even have one.</p>
<p>Drawing from less prestigious schools, an example is - Colorado School of Mines. Most of you have probably not even heard of it, but if youāre in geology, it has an excellent reputation.</p>
<p>At the end, it just comes down to the big picture. You wouldnāt haul with a ferrari, and you wouldnāt drag race with a semi-truck. Even for the latter, Iām pretty sure that even a $15k compact car would be better than a Mack semi-truck. Same applies to colleges.</p>
<p>even if engineering doesnāt work out for me, i still have many options to choose from here @ Calā¦ granted that iām taking all of these prerequisites specifically for transferring to the COE (iām undeclared in L&S currently)ā¦ but the prerequisites are general physical sciences prerequisites as well so iāll be okay.</p>
<p>so answering batmanās questionā¦ yes, even if i were undeclared (which i am), and engineering didnāt work out, i would still choose berkeley over iviesā¦ i would only turn down berkeley for stanford mainly because of fit. it also has to do with location. i just love california.</p>
<p>Based on my past experiences, words from acquaintances, educational background, etc, etcā¦ Cornell is a pseudo Ivy. And for those who are convinced that it is indeed an ivy see it as the āsick man of ivy.ā </p>
<p>I bet those international students in Cornell are there because they have been rejected at Berkeley.</p>
<p>I admit, and anyone would admit, that Cornell lags significantly behind compared to HYP, Wharton, and in some circles, Columbia. But, who cares about some of opinions that you may have gathered, presumably containing those audiences who are ignorant, uneducated laymen? Hell, I bet most people who are āaverage joesā on the street donāt know that Dartmouth or Brown are ivies. Yet, the educated, and those who are in the āknowā should be aware that these two schools are top notch and their students are high caliber. In fact, that is why most consulting/ IB firms recruit much more heavily on all Ivies (including Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth, etc) compared to a state university like Berkeley. </p>
<p>And, in the eyes of top high school students across the country, come on, Berkeley does not even make the list of highly desirable colleges. All Ivies, Duke, Stanford, MIT, Georgetown, UChicago, NU, etc are the most common contenders for this list of most sought after colleges. Berkeley, on the other hand, mainly caters to high school students from Cali. Or, maybe Berkeley is preferred over some Ivies by those students from Malaysia, Indonesia, or some place like that in which Berkeley is perceived to be more prestigious than it is for whatever reason. </p>
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<p>No, the students at Cornell may be here after getting rejected from HYPSM, Columbia, or the like. I doubt many of the students here at Cornell even applied to Berkeley, or wanted to attend Berkeley in the first place.</p>
<p>"Based on my past experiences, words from acquaintances, educational background, etc, etcā¦ Cornell is a pseudo Ivy. And for those who are convinced that it is indeed an ivy see it as the āsick man of ivy.ā </p>
<p>I bet those international students in Cornell are there because they have been rejected at Berkeley. "</p>
<p>WHAT! ā¦
Well to be honest, I do know someone who chose Berkeley over Cornell because of international prestige (though I think Cornell is as prestigious as Berkeley internationally)~
but still, those statements are ridiculous~ stop the hate dude</p>
<p>No, Iām pretty sure everything Iāve read about consulting and investment banking indicates that Haas is one of the top targets behind only HYPS, Sloan, Wharton (definitely higher than Cornell and Brown, maybe not Dartmouth)</p>
<p>Uhm, Lazykid, I understand you may feel insulted, but youāre making no progress in your ideas. When youād not like to consider the words of the āignorantā as you call them, why would you bring up the thoughts of (equally unenlightened) high school seniors wanting Ivy prestige? </p>
<p>Youāre getting a lot of flaming against your school, but realistically youāre not doing anything but flaming; you havenāt said a single productive word about the positives of your school or Berkeley, only about perceived prestige ā donāt expect intelligent replies much longer. I gave you plenty, and youāre just responding to the flamers at this point, a futile thing, but to each his/her own.</p>
<p>for many, many smart, elite, good-looking and well-bred students out there, theyād rather go to a top school than to an ivy school thatās considered the dumbest ivy.</p>