<p>hahaha wait
i understood less than half of what victoria0217 said
i think this argument is plain ridiculous
of course there exists racims against asians, just as there is prejudice against blacks, hispanics, gays, women, and many others
but the fact is that asians have endured far less of a struggle than many other minorities, for the fact is that there have never been (or are very few) direct laws that limit the rights of asians, as there have been for women, blacks, and gays. i think that considering the number of asians there are in America today, they have been subjected to dramatically less prejudice than most other minorities</p>
<p>There have actually been quit a few direct laws that limit the rights of Asians. </p>
<p>-Chinese Exclusion Act-Weren't allowed to even come into the country for 50+ years.</p>
<p>-Anti-Coolie Act- Placed a tax on Chinese workers</p>
<p>-Internment Camps- Self-explanatory</p>
<p>-Immigration Act of 1924</p>
<p>Besides these major ones, there were all sorts of efforts by the government and labor unions to stop the Chinese and other Asians from immigrating, including barring their right to own land, to have long hair, to marry white women, etc. The first wave of Asian immigration came right in the middle of the nativist movement, and they faced their fair share of discrimination.</p>
<p>oh that is deifnitely true, i guess i overlooked those things
but you do have to admit that whereas the wounds from slavery, Jim Crowe, and antisuffrage still persist in society today, there exist very few remnants from asian discrimination, which affected a relatively small group of individuals
as I said, asians HAVE faced much less discrimination than other more populous majorities, and from talking to my mother, who is a teacher, there is a large sentiment that most asians suffer not from the prejudicial idea that they cannot perform, but from the idea that they CAN and SHOULD be smarter than most other individuals in our society today
which, while bad, is far less malevolent than being fired from a job because of sexual orientation</p>
<p>Oprah, I am first off going to say that this argument is both ridiculous and pointless. However, I will point out though, considering this is a college admissions website, that the affirmative action used against the asian community and in favor of URMs is not necessarily just - I feel like college should be a completely merit based admissions, not including race as a factor. If the population of asians/caucasians are performing better than the URMs, their race shouldn't be something to hold them back from being admitted into top universities. the philosophy that asians CAN and SHOULD be smarter comes from the fact that the asian community presses itself to perform on a higher level that most others - they are overachievers in many senses of the word. that concept of asian overachievement also comes from the fact that asian parents push their kids to perform so that they can receive opportunities that the parents themselves never received ... considering that a large majority of asians here are 1st or 2nd generation.</p>
<p>there's always going to be bias for/against something...</p>
<p>that said.. asian parents frequently focus on harvard, stanford, mit, etc. and try to push their children in that direction. i said frequently, because some obviously do not..but more asians are pushed that way than other races. it's simply a difference in values and principles. is it right for colleges to punish them for wanting to have the best education possible? i don't think so. but it happens. non-asians most of the time don't understand the stress and pressure of being in a situation like this. they say "oh you study hard youll get into harvard." then the next year they both end up going to state college even though the asian had significantly more qualifications than the other non-asian. it's hard NOT to perceive this as an asian disadvantage in the college admissions process..</p>
<p>that's why many asians like the UCs because they have acknowledged that they discriminated against asians and abolished affirmative action.. asian acceptance has risen dramatically since the ban..</p>
<p>^^pyn</p>
<p>yep, plus, UCs are much more score based anyways. and asians are the majority at Berkeley and UCLA.</p>
<p>Oprah, let's dissect this argument, shall we? I do enjoy a good debate. and I happen to be Asian; one that will be bitter when decisions roll around and I am left behind. Nothing personal I hope.</p>
<p>"asians HAVE faced much less discrimination"
so to even the balance, they start the discrimination now?</p>
<p>"more populous"
does it matter how large the minority is? discrimination is discrimination.</p>
<p>"wounds from slavery"
how does that "persist in society today"? do you forget the discrimination against the Japanese during World War II? do you forget the dangers the Chinese had to go through while constructing the transcontinental railroad?</p>
<p>^^^Yes yes</p>
<p>Asians are discriminated against and especially in college applications.</p>
<p>I think like a capitalist... let the market decide. If there are more asians out there qualified for positions, there is no reason why they shouldn't get what they deserve. Colleges have to promote diversity on campus, partly because of how PC our society is today, partly because diversity does add a different perspective that helps diversify students' thinking... I think that the injustice of barring a qualified applicant for one who is less qualified but more diverse is fundamentally unethical though. The reason why asians aren't leading all of the western world yet is because they haven't had time to rise up. The people who are at the head of the world now were in school forty years ago, when asians didn't dominate. As time goes on, I promise that you will see a significant increase in the role of asians in our society. Yellow is the new white.</p>
<p>listen guys
im not saying asian discrimination does not exist today! It's a horrible thing and that's the truth
but I just think that it is rather far-fetched to say that the prejudice that asians face is comparable to that that, say, african americans face today and have faced in the past.
and i dont think that it's quite accurate when you say that asians are discriminated against in college applications. yes, it is more difficult for asians to be accepted to colleges, but that is only because any given asian applicant is competing against the many other asian applicants who excel in academics more than individuals of other races
you all must understand that I sympathize with what you are saying - asians are discriminated against! as a homosexual, I know what it is like to face prejudice in today's society, so don't think that I am trying to downplay your strife. but going back to the root of this thread, it is fundamentally untrue that asians are significantly marginalized in our current culture, for they have in fact played a major and significant role in business, science research, and entertainment, and do play a larger role in those areas than is indicative of their population in America</p>
<p>oh, and by the way, zephyravatar, I didnt really understand what you meant with your first point there</p>
<p>this argument is.. interesting?
there are valid points on both sides (i'm half asian, so..)</p>
<p>but my issue is..
WHY do we need to decide who faced worse discrimination? isn't all discrimination bad? are you going to say that one individual or group's fight against prejudice is more significant than that of another?</p>
<p>honestly, i don't think an argument is really helping anything. it's only serving to make all of us a little more angry and a little less willing to grant any credit to the other side..</p>
<p>p. s. i'm not saying i'm above the bias or anything.. in fact i'm probably more biased in one direction or another. i just think that this is a bad argument to get so worked up over on both sides.</p>
<p>Yes Oprah!, but the point is that Asians should not be compared only to asians, but to everyone else. By only comparing asians to asians coupled with the fact that most asians excel in school, that would put asians at an exceptional disadvantage.</p>
<p>now I'm gonna play the devil's advocate and say: Gay people don't have to come out. Asians will always be asians.</p>
<p>^I hope I didn't seem angry in my post. I generally like arguing, that's all. Too bad our debating coach wasn't much fun (aka boring), or else I might have seriously entered debating. ;)</p>
<p>Oprah, I understand that your situation is much worse than any average Asian's. I go to an all-guys school, and I even get enough negative comments just by virtue of that (which baffles me, but that's okay).</p>
<p>I do like GimmeStanford's point of view though. perhaps not enough time has passed to allow Asians to rise, that's all.</p>
<p>what I was trying to say was that even if you say asians have faced less discrimination in the past, that doesn't justify the existence of discrimination in the present. but I guess you answered that by saying it's not justified, but it exists anyways.</p>
<p>for any economists out there, I propose this argument: the restriction on Asians admitted is roughly analogous to a quota on imports. because there is less foreign competition, domestic producers (aka students of other races) have less incentive to increase productivity (ie work harder). this results in inefficient allocation of resources, as the superior students would be able to utilize the same education and gain more. like GimmeStanford said, free market is often the most efficient.</p>
<p>Changing the subject a bit, has anyone else read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell yet? In it there's a section where it discusses how when it comes to success, the only relevant breakdown is good enough and not good enough. Past that, not much could be predicted for who would actually be successful amongst those deemed "good enough". A Psychologist from Swarthmore proposed that applicants just be sorted into those two categories and then have a lottery for the good enough students, because distinguishing who's worthy in that group is disingenuous, statistically speaking. Sorry, this is completely off topic but zephyravatar's post reminded me of it.</p>
<p>wait i don't get that all guys school comment</p>
<p>Are you saying that you're gay too?</p>
<p>nah, I meant people seem to assume that, because I go to an all-guys school, I am gay. silly, but it sorta gives me a taste of what it would feel like. sucks :(</p>
<p>hmm, never read it. I'm an insane reader though. I might pick it up this winter break. sounds pretty interesting too.</p>
<p>oh cool. jw</p>
<p>Now I don't get why going to an all-guys school would make you seem gay.. T.T</p>
<p>for me, it jsut makes me think your rich. T.T lol</p>
<p>i disagree with oprah. you shouldn't be compared to a certain subset of a group because of a couple of base pairs in your dna are similar... that's for both comparing people within races and genders... </p>
<p>i understand mike's statement, but i definitely do believe there are tiers in the "good enough" pile because some are definitely going to be higher up in that category</p>
<p>sadface: Asians make up 2% of the population yet take up around 20% of the nation's best colleges. </p>
<p>You might bring up a good point the way you phrase your argument, but look closer and you're blatantly wrong. Sure, Asians aren't prominent but look at the prominent people you listed. Pop culture stars, a couple presidents and vice presidents, and Google. That's your list of prominent people? Oh I'm sorry we don't have an Asian Britney Spears or an Asian Rihanna. Your trolling attempt is a success so far.</p>
<p>Prominent Asians are everywhere in science, music, and business (or as you say, industry), you just don't know people past what you see on MTV to be able to realize how many Asians create and lead some of the largest corporations in the world, how many Asians hold Nobel laureates, how many Asians teach at the best schools in the world, how many Asians work at the leading scientific institutions in the world, etc. etc. </p>
<p>What do you think those 20% of Asians who attend the best colleges in the US do? Just disappear? </p>
<p>Oh and I realize you're Asian too, looking at your past posts... Maybe you should have looked up a little more information before you posted this. Again I'll say, you bring up a couple famous politicians (good luck finding an Asian who really cares enough to enter politics, most of us are academically driven), some idiots from pop culture (you really think Asians should push more to become like Spears, Aguilera, or Madonna? From what I remember, those people are really looked down on...), and Google (do you have any idea how many Asians work at Google? Obviously not.)</p>
<p>Good evening to you, and good luck with Stanford.</p>
<p>^^^______</p>
<p>You have no idea what you're talking about, so don't act all high and mighty.
First the asian population is at least 3.6% based on the last census. CensusScope</a> -- Demographic Maps: Asian Population</p>
<p>I don't know where you get that 20% of colleges thing.</p>
<p>And you should name some governors or congressmen that are asian. Apparently you can't...</p>
<p>You are one of the most arrogant people I have ever seen. "asians don't care enough about politics?" What a crap shoot. Some how politics are not important as academics?</p>
<p>"From what I remember, those people are really looked down on..." So apparently successful actors and musicians are looked down upon? Just because you do doesn't mean everyone else does.</p>
<p>"You might bring up a good point the way you phrase your argument, but look closer and you're blatantly wrong. Sure, Asians aren't prominent"</p>
<p>P.S. you contradicted your entire point by saying that you agree asians aren't prominent. All I said was asian wasn't prominent and I listed a couple of examples. Do you expect me to name all the possiblities?</p>
<p>Another P.S. why would people look down upon Rhianna? She is the one who made something out of herself. She pursued her dream of singing and made it from Barbados.</p>
<p>and Madonna? One of the most successful female singers in history with eleven hit albums?</p>
<p>The Founding fathers? who were all about politics and founded the first truly democratic nation on earth (Athens doesn't count, only wealthy white men could vote) So apparently that kind of politics is not worthy of an asian?</p>
<p>Presidents of the United States? Hello? Commander-in-Chief and Chief Executive of the most powerful and wealthiest nation on Earth? If that is not success than NO ONE knows what success is.</p>
<p>Your Values are warped beyond measure. and it is you who needs to do a little research.</p>