Attending a Top Prep School will HELP your chances of admission to an Ivy!

Prep School Admissions
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<p>I suspect that going to a top prep school will increase chances of getting into an ivy vs. that student's local public school because there are many local public schools that do not have a track record of getting top students into ivys. What is questionable is whether or not that same student would do better in a competitive local public school that does have an ivy track record. In this case, I suspect it would be easier to rise to the top at that school than it would be at a very competitive prep school. </p>

<p>Anyway, if you look at the entering class profile of any competitive college, you will usually find that private school students have a better chance of acceptance than public school kids. Here it is for Harvard: Harvard</a> College Admissions Office: Guidance Counselors I don't know what the actual # of private school students in the US is vs. the # of public schools students, but it might be in the neighborhood of 10% or less. By checking the profile of entering classes at very competitive schools, you can see that there is greater probability of entering an ivy from private schools. Please note that this includes all private schools, not just the most competitive.</p>

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<p>I think without a doubt that private schools are represented at elite colleges in greater numbers than their presence in the population would warrant, so therefore, private school students are more represented in elite schools.</p>

<p>However, if we controlled for income, the education level of parents, geographical distribution, number of AP's taken, average SAT scores and interesting EC's we don't know it this would be the case. It's safe to assume that boarding school students come from more affluent families with more resources to devote to the college process. If this same students were in public school their results might be the same. That was the comparison I was making with my admittedly pathetically small sample.</p>

<p>Boarding school is a distinct advantage if the GC has a historical relationship with adcoms from elite schools that are "funnel" schools. However, this is less and less true as elite schools wish to diversify.</p>

<p>Dear cousin who attended Spence (not a boarding school, but very elite private day school in NYC, NYC parents have these options and tend to use boarding school less) and was deferred and then rejected from Yale. Attended Williams as my son is doing from public. He had Brown and UofC as other choices. I don't think he would have been accepted at HYPS even if he'd attended a private. However, he didn't apply because he wanted a more intimate environment, so we'll never know.</p>

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<p>Mythmom, I am very glad to hear that your kids had so much success coming from your public high school. It sounds like you have a GREAT school. You do realize however, that unfortunately, public schools like yours are an exception rather than the rule. So, comparing your HS, where your son graduated with 11 APs to a high school such as my local school where you are lucky if you can get into one of the 4 (yes only 4 ) AP classes that are offered, may be like comparing apples to oranges.</p>

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<p>I recently sat through an admissions presentation by a director at a well known LAC. During the question and answer period, a parent asked "If you have statistically equal candidates with the same sports or activities from Prestige Academy, or Not So Well Known Public School, which student would you take?" The guy said "We would take the candidate from Prestige Academy every time, because we KNOW they are prepared for college. I thought that was interesting. At least it made me feel better about being broke!</p>

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<p>My kids have attended "good" private and suburban public schools at various points in their education. And same with me, all those years earlier.</p>

<p>The main issue to me was tracking in the lower grades. The particular private schools were academically selective, beyond the degree to which the public schools tracked. Being in classes of more homogeneous (high) ability- and not being tied to state-imposed curricula- allowed the classes to proceed at a different rate, at a different level. One of the schools was truly wonderful. At the high school level the public schools tracked also, and at that point the educational advantages indeed narrowed. But there was still advantage to these private schools due to finer tracking and smaller classes. My kids reported that for a given class at the private school, vs. an equivalent "Honors" class at the public school, the private had more and better class discussion, more written papers, more books read.</p>

<p>A second benefit was social. My kids simply got along better with bright kids, so being surrounded by a higher proportion of them resulted in a better social situation for them. </p>

<p>I've looked at where the kids go to college at each of these particular schools; the top 3% of these public school kids are attending the same range of colleges as the top third to one-half of the private school kids did.</p>

<p>My guess is somewhat more than 3% of the public school kids had similar capabilities, so it would appear to me that the private school kids did better in aggregate. However in some cases economics may have influenced destinations of the public school kids.</p>

<p>As well, the private school kids were much more likely to be headed to the very top schools. But then they were also much more likely to be alumni kids.</p>

<p>There are some kids at the private schools who may have gotten into "worse", but still excellent, colleges than they believed they deserved because a particular college simply wasn't going to admit more than say 10 applicants from their private school, and they were #11. </p>

<p>Back in the day the private school near mine was like that, everyone thought they belonged at Harvard and Yale, but in the end disproportionate numbers wound up at Penn and Columbia (when neither was considered so great). But, the year I graduated from high school, the valedictorian at the local public school "only " wound up at Penn as well.</p>

<p>My daughters' private school personal friends are disproportionally attending very top colleges. Their public school friends are mostly going to very good , well respected colleges, with some overlap with the others, but overall not as "top". But maybe they aren't as educationally outstanding individuals, either; hard to say.</p>

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<p>Articles</a> by Howard and Matthew Greene</p>

<p>2002 article discussing topic</p>

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<p>Yes, that is one of the articles that I had read as well that mentioned the 20-30% private school graduates attending the "top" colleges.</p>

<p>An array of factors are involved in the admissions process at colleges, as many of you have pointed out. I found Sabooks comment very interesting (the adcom saying they would take the kid from Prestige Academy because they know he is *prep*ared for college. This is what I had thought as well, but as I stated, I didn't have any scientific data to back it up.</p>

<p>I think that guidance counselors (and parents) can help direct where a child applies to college. Interesting to note mythmom's suburban school results--where an inordinate number of kids ended up attending very prestigious schools. Her child’s school is located in New York. Most of the Ivy League schools are in the same geographic location. Our local high school is considered one of the best in our state. (I am in the Midwest.) There are 16 AP classes, mandatory state test scores are high (in the 95% percentile). ACT scores (also mandatory—SAT is optional), average in the 70% percentile. Two seniors this year scored a perfect score on the SAT, one of them also got a perfect score on the ACT. Yet, I can count on one hand how many of the seniors have gone to an Ivy, MIT, or Stanford, in the past five years. The majority of the kids end up at school located in the Midwest—good schools (Notre Dame, Northwestern, University of Chicago, and University of Michigan), but not Harvard or Yale. Is it because of cost, as monydad wondered? Many of the parents attended the same Midwest schools—there is a legacy and a comfort zone. Guidance counselors are familiar with the requirements for these schools—are they as familiar with Dartmouth or Brown’s requirements?</p>

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<p>I think we are starting to get to the answer of why prep school graduates are represented in greater numbers at the Ivies and top LACs. Before moving south, I spent 17 years in midwestern states in top level school districts. And like your experience, these well educated children did not choose to apply to Ivies and top LACs. Those were not the schools discussed by either the students, their families, or the GCs. And even at the elite day schools in thoses cities where there were several perfect ACTs every year, the Ivies and top LACs were not as prevalent on the matric list as you would think.</p>

<p>And I grew up in California where with 1 out of every 9 Americans living there, you'd think that they'd place more Californians in Ivies than they do (trust me, the percentage of Californians at Ivies is no where remotely close to 1 out of 9). Many (if not most) Californians won't leave the good weather and are culturally out of touch with most of the East Coast.</p>

<p>What it comes down to is that certain populations self-select either into or out of Ivy/top LAC schools. And many of those people whow are self-selecting into top prep schools where they see a history of graduates matriculating into Ivies and top LACs. These prep schools have placement records going back to when college admissions was more about old money and recruiting students from the right families. </p>

<p>Inertia is a powerful thing. If an Ivy has a track record of finding successful candidates at X school, they will keep coming back there. If families with a strong desire for Ivy education see that connection, they will do everything to put their kids in X school.</p>

<p>Now granted they also want a well educated kid, so there is a lot of need for X school to excel in preparation, but of course this is easier with a population of self-selected, self-motivated students. Put them all together in a school and you have a self-reinforcing culture that is "Ivy (or at least a top LAC) or bust".</p>

<p>Taking this back to the original question, if you are culturally driven to Ivy or top LAC as the goal, being with like-minded peers will reinforce that thought/behavioral process and likely reinforce the behaviors likely to gain you admittance (which includes applying in the first place).</p>

<p>To an independent thinking outsider (from a culture like the midwest), this might be a little too much and may actually harm their performance in school as it can be intimidating.</p>

<p>Like I said, this is more about the individual and what makes them tick as to whether a prep school provides a better avenue to a better school (I will take excpetion to the thought that Ivy/Top LAC is the best education for all).</p>

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<p>Another note that may help to reinforce the inertia concept. Have you ever noticed that in ceratin regions that certain high schools tend to place a significantly greater percentage of its football players in top D1 schools. It is not all about coaching, when you read how many parents actually change jobs and move so their kid can play at Football HS because Football HS places lots of kids in D1. This phenomena can feed on for years even without the big money advantage that helps the inertia at the top prep schools.</p>

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<p>Less than 8% of schools are private, well over 90% public. So, if you go private you do have a higher chance of getting in to a good college but of course, self-selection, legacy etc will complicate my simplistic assertion.</p>

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<p>Goaliedad, I don't think anyone is saying that Ivy/Top Lac is the best for all. That wasn't my reason for starting this thread-nor do I think it is true. (As I have posted before, everyone in my family except for me attended Ivies. I think I had the better time in college :))</p>

<p>I started this discussion because in other threads people stated it was easier to get into an Ivy by being a shining star at your local high school. Check out this thread:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-admissions/388680-really-confused-leaving.html?%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/prep-school-admissions/388680-really-confused-leaving.html?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A bunch of people disagreed with Johnathon. I happened to think he was on the right track. </p>

<p>Of course, there are factors involved why there are more prep school graduates attending Ivies--points brought up by everyone here.</p>

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<p>It may well be easier to get into an Ivy or top LAC as the strar from a good public school than as a middle-of-the-pack in a top prep school - - but being the star isn't always that easy. At a large public sch there will be a lot of almost-stars. And, the middle of the pack at top schs (day and prep) do remarkably - - just check out the college matric lists of Brearley, Spence, Chapin, Trinity, Collegiate, Mann and Dalton (and to a somewhat lesser degree St. Ann's in Bklyn).</p>

<p>I think the true secret is that middle-of-the-pack kids at even mediocre prep/day schs do surprisingly well (even absent legacy connections), in large part b/c the college counseling staff is on the ball. </p>

<p>And forget about candidates w/ near-identical profiles; adcoms routinely give day/prep applicants a bump (or the benefit of the doubt), admitting the day/prep student w/ a lesser profile over a more qualified public sch applicant. I'm not talking silk purse vs sow's ear, but there's still a definite benefit. (I wonder whether this is increasingly true as colleges move away from the SAT to increase reliance on grades, often from schs w/ which the adcoms are unfamiliar).</p>

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<p>Yeah, I gotta think money is the common denominator. Our school district is very wealthy; Newsweek top 100 in country with AP's. No one sent kids to private school at high school leve. We did at elementary level for reasons enumerated by monydad and because my work schedule made me feel safer knowing the school wasn't going to send kids home before I could get there, if I was stuck in traffic -- etc.</p>

<p>We were one of the less affluent members of the our community which included fabulous wealth and fabulous education because world class scientists live here (Brookhaven National Labs.)</p>

<p>In addition, we have an electric plant in town that pays half the school taxes. We spent $21,000.00 plus to educate each student. </p>

<p>I think where there's more money there's more elite college acceptance. Over half my S's graduating class was inducted into National Honor Society. Three quarters of the grade played or sang in a music group; three quarters of the grade was on a varsity athletic team (not my kids for the team.) All EC's have a no cut policy. This is possible because class is so tiny and money is abundant.</p>

<p>Yes, I realize few publics can offer these opportunities. But I am saying the difference is in economic resources and expectations of parents, not simple public/private split.</p>

<p>I will say that the Latin teacher that arrived from private school was not prepared for the rough and tumble world of a public high school and didn't make it here. So perhaps behavior and expectations are even higher at the private school.</p>

<p>I have seen documentaries on inner city populations that can perform at the same level as private school kids when the resources are provided. I only wish they were.</p>

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<p>Money is the common denom, and in most cases money means pvt sch (exceptionally affluent publics and isolated inner city sch, notwithstanding).</p>

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<p>What about the issue of kids getting into top schools because the ivy's and others routinely go to top preps for certain kinds of kids i.e. swimmers, musicians, football players and other top sports players, etc. Don't you think that also factors in pretty heavily? If Princeton needs a certain type of kid they go to X school for them since they know they will find them there. If Yale wants a top crew team member, they go to ... and the list goes on.</p>

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<p>Home school. :D</p>

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<p>IT LIVES! I'm talking about ChaosTheory, of course! :)</p>

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<p>Well, folks need to realize that the Ivy target is a constantly moving one - and what was true ten or even five years ago may not hold for today. All the Ivies and other elite schools now get far more applicants and far more excellent applicants than they can easily deal with.
I tend to think that this is really an unanswerable question. To do a rigorous comparison, there would need to be screening for all other variables - and finding, therefore a database of sufficent size seems unlikely. Kids at the elite preps already tend to come from wealthy and legacy families that value education. They apply to the Ivies in greater numbers too.
The biggest factor I would see in terms of admissions that clearly is different is the admissions advice that private schools provide. They have full time staff devoted to the college admissions process, they have up to date information, and they have time and money.
What I also find sad is that very idea that sending a kid to a particular boarding school to goose up his/her chances at the Ivies is a reasonable concept.</p>

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<p>How is selecting a BS to improve a student's chances at a partic college or caliber of college any diff than choosing a strong magnet/test shc or moving to affluent dist w/ strong publc shc for the same purpose? </p>

<p>In NYC, parents pay for Kaplan prep courses (and pvt tutors) to get their kids into the top test school: Hunter, Stuy, Bx Sci, etc. Yes, the quality of educat is excellent (as it is at many prep/day schs), but b/c adcoms are very familiar w/ these schs, attending Hunter/Stuy/BxSci will goose the college app, even if not to the same degree as attending a top prep/day sch.</p>

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<p>my public high school has, in a good year, about 25~ ivies (although not all the ppl go). that's a little less than 10%. and if you're talking about the top schools like 25 schools in general, then we have like 30%. last year we had:
2 harvards
5 princetons
like 10 cornells
3 upenns
3 columbias
1 MIT</p>

<p>and anyone in top 30% gets into a LOT of other top schools, like the top 25 schools on the US news (which is stupid, how can princeton > mit).</p>

<p>my school is a competitive public school in NJ, and we have about 350-400 students a year</p>