I have to admit to having had misgivings about GMTson not taking the very attractive package at Bama. But watching this video reassured me that he made the right decision.
The Bama administration may have sharply criticized this sorority’s tone-deaf video. But the mere fact that the sorority thought it appropriate (lol, a group of lily white girls linking hands around one black football player and an elephant mascot), only highlights how deeply ingrained the racially segregated culture is, and how unlikely things will change significantly in my son’s next 4 yours.
I joked on another thread that you’ll know that an up & coming school has “arrived” when asian students start suing it for admissions discrimination. Well, I was only half kidding. There was only one thing that troubled us during our visit to Bama. GMTspouse & I discussed it quietly after the visit, and just let it go. It’s about the Honors College.
The Honors College is for all appearances a great thing. The AO explained how the Honors students get first dibs for dorm assignments, first dibs for class assignments, and invitations to exclusive social events for Honor College students only. When I asked the AO about the racial demographics of the Honors College, the AO just hemmed & hawed. We saw one black student in the Honors College office the whole time we were there. Afterwards, GMTspouse & I cynically joked that Bama had successfully managed to institutionalize putting black students in the back of the bus again. I haven’t thought about that “back of the bus” conversation, until I saw the disturbing sorority video. (In fairness, the confluence of special privileges for Honors students and the racial lopsidedness of Honors student body is not unique to Bama).
So, you ask, how is the stupid sorority video linked to the Honors College? It’s all part of a de facto racial caste system. The “Greek row” at Bama is jaw-dropping. There is nothing like it on that order of magnitude on any campus anywhere. The most prime real estate & and most prime location on campus. The greek system is the bricks & mortar manifestation of the school’s social racial caste system and the Honors College complements it as the academic racial caste system.
I genuinely would like to see Bama rise. But with recruitment videos like that, it’s going to be a while before Edward Blum fires up a lawsuit.
Oldmom486 wrote: "Huh? I thought UA is 30 percent Greek. 70 percent (assuming all of them decided not to go Greek for financial reasons) is NOT “the great majority.” It IS 30 per cent Greek. So if 70 per cent are NOT Greek, they ARE the great majority of the student body. Or would that percentage need to be 90 per cent? Please explain.
TheAtlantic wrote: “Yeah part of it is due to affirmative action. So what? Even if I get into a high ranking institution in part or regardless of affirmative action, my stats would still be near the top of the pool at Alabama.” So what? Well, I for one do not support affirmative action. I support the best qualified making the cut, based on merit, not on race. But that is a subject for another thread. And so what if YOUR stats would be at the top of the pool at UA. Did I imply that you personally were somehow a beneficiary of affirmative action? I know nothing about you. But I do know the signficant
disparities between the average White and the average Black ACT, even after accounting for socioeconomic status. That gap exists in Alabama too, yet still, UA attracts and enrolls a very large number of Blacks.
“Alabama isn’t a hard to get into school, nobody is saying otherwise. Alabama is a flagship that attracts enough applicants from all the state’s demographics, we get it. By definition that’s what a flagship does. The last two sentences of your post make no sense to me.” I think several people did mention the percentage of Blacks in Alabama and how UA’s number of Blacks is not that impressive given the large percentage of Blacks in the state. But if you did not mean to imply that UA was making it harder for Blacks to enroll, then I apologize.
Here is what I wrote: "And here is what none of you address. This is largely a class issue. The great majority of students at UA probably can not afford to be in a Greek house. And the average income of Black Alabamians is a lot less than that of White Alabamians. AND UA has a very strong Black Greek system, that has a lot of pride. NO qualified Black student is being denied entry into UA
Your response:
"1- Race/Class are intersectional " Yes, much of the time, but there are very many poor. lower, working and middle class Whites in Alabama too. They don’t have as much of an opportunity to participate in UA’s Greek system either.
“2- A high enough proportion the entire school are part of Greek Life to where income cannot be the only obstacle” I never said it was the only obstacle, but I think at this point, it is the most important factor. After all, only three of the young Black ladies who completed rush were not accepted by one house. And many more ladies of other minority status were accepted as well. But look at the cost of going Greek at UA. It is very expensive. I know I never could have afforded it. And I doubt most students could either. I imagine there are a significant number of students who have to drop out of the system due to finances, or SHOULD drop out because they are having to take out loans to pay their way. And again, there are far fewer Blacks in Alabama who can afford to put their kids in a Greek house.
“3- Nobody is saying that the school is discriminating against black people getting accepted. This is about the Greek System.” I inferred that some people were. Point taken.
TheAtlantic wrote in response to me: '“And did I, a White man, have the same opportunities as the minority of Whites who were in the Greek system at UA back in the late 80s?. NO. Because its not about race, its about class.”
Because racism totally doesn’t exist in the economic, educational, and corporate spheres of America! Right! Money is the panacea for all mistreatment." I think racism IS overrated. If you are Black, married, and have a degree, your income is virtually the same as that of a White person. That last statement might need some clarification, but I know I have seen the stat before that showed something similar to that. Plus, corporations also practice affirmative action, which has been a great boon to the Black upper class. Every corporation in America wants to be “diverse.” I put diverse in quotation marks, because it bothers me that people think racial diversity is more important than diversity of thought, of culture, etc.
fallenchemist wrote: “I think you completely miss the point, and even argue against yourself. The very fact that in general Alabama has a much larger number of black students than these other schools AND YET has a minuscule number in these sororities just dramatizes the point even more, without having to be drama queens. And your use of statistics is ridiculous, because the numbers that form the base for the increase are so small. If there is a company of 100 employees and they have one black person last year and now have two, that is a 100% increase, but hardly a major achievement.”
I wasn’t pointing to the increase. I was pointing to the fact that only three young Black ladies who completed the rush process did not find a match with a house. And we don’t know if there WERE no other houses that would have accepted them. Three is a small number, even relative to the small number of Black women who completed the rush process. You and others want to -pretend that the only reason for the small number of Black women in UA’s Greek system is racism. I have already explained in response to other threads, namely to TheAtlantic, that other factors probably play a large or larger role at THIS point in time. And another thing I should have mentioned is the role of culture. Do you really think that there are no cultural reasons for self segregation? Is it racist that young Blacks and young Whites often have very different cultural experiences and expectations? No, I think it is a fact of life. and I think we in the South appreciate those differences more than do the people of other regions, because we interact with people of a different race far more than do most people from other parts of the nation. Does that mean every young person identifies with the culture associated with their race? No.
Fallenchemist wrote [Finally, to say this is strictly or even mostly a class issue is ludicrous. For one thing, these sororities have scholarships and fee waivers they can easily use to increase minority enrollment if that is the issue. Second, out of all those black students at Alabama and the subset that have tried to get into sororities in the past but have been refused and discouraged from trying, I would be more than shocked if there were not enough that could easily afford to be in a sorority to obviate your argument. Evidence? Many join black sororities and pay similar dues.] I don’t know about any wavers for sorority fees. If you have more info, do share with the thread, cause Greek fees are pretty steep. And do you have info about the cost of dues at traditionally Black Greek houses. I doubt their fees are as high cause their houses are much smaller and less grand than that of the traditionally White houses. Do you personally know the size of that subset that has tried to get in? I suspect you don’t, and neither do I, but I am confident that there have never been large numbers of young Black ladies who have tried to get in the predominantly White Greek system. I imagine the traditionally Black sororities are annoyed by this situation. They have more than filled the void posed by past racism in UA’s Greek system. The young Black ladies in UA’s traditionally Black Greek houses are VERY proud of their organizations. I remember seeing that pride when I was at UA.
Pizzagirl wrote: “That’s part of the problem, Lucie - that these groups take themselves so seriously that there has to BE a “Machine.” Why can’t they just chill out and be social organizations instead of “avenues of power”? This is why Alabama still has far to go no matter how much money they throw at OOS.” UA is doing just fine. More than 25 % of its freshman had an ACT of 32 or higher last Fall. Quite an improvement from the past. So, your opinion is not based on much. Have an objective fact to substantiate your claim that it has “far to go”? For whom? Seems very many top students are eager to attend UA. This Fall, UA will enroll another record freshman class, of over 7,000 students. It is doing just fine.
Pizzagirl wrote" “Plenty of Archie Bunkers in the north, but even Archie Bunker didn’t think blacks shouldn’t be able to sit at the lunch counter, sit anywhere they liked on a bus, use the same drinking fountains, etc. Face it - there was a special kind of dehumanization that took place in the South, and the “well, the North isn’t perfect either!” is just a way to deflect the truth - which is that you guys were way worse, for way longer. Why can’t you guys ever just cop to it and say you’re sorry?”
I will answer the latter first. Because I had nothing to do with it! Jim Crow died in 1965!!! Face it, the slave trade began in the North. The North was not some place where Blacks experienced racial nirvana, not by any means. The greatest race riots were in NYC during the war between the states. Boston Whites rioted when busing was forced on them. It was in the Midwest that a town of Black professionals were savagely murdered. In the South, unlike in the North, Whites and Blacks have been rubbing up against each other to a much greater degree because of the substantially larger percentage of Blacks in the South. With that comes greater cultural friction. And again, I wasn’t even around till after Jim Crow had died, so its really offensive for you to “you guys…”
You know, most churches aren’t very “diverse” at all, and while they are sometimes criticized no one suggests that they should be forced by the government to integrate or go out and recruit new members to make themselves more “diverse.”
Many churches actually try to do this, but it’s difficult. People who want to wear jeans and a t-shirt to church aren’t comfortable attending church with people wearing suits and nice dresses, and vice versa. People who want a traditional service can’t stand a contemporary service, and vice versa.
I point this out because churches have no membership requirement. No one is excluded. All you need to do is show up. Yet they are not very successful at creating diversity, because when it comes to Sunday worship most people don’t really want diversity. So think how much harder it is to create diversity in a highly selective Greek organization that is quite expensive to join.
In the case of various Greek organizations, many people who might make them more “diverse” in some way have no desire to join. The very nature of the Greek system is that it groups similar people together, and that’s a good thing.
GMTplus7 wrote : "The Honors College is for all appearances a great thing. The AO explained how the Honors students get first dibs for dorm assignments, first dibs for class assignments, and invitations to exclusive social events for Honor College students only. When I asked the AO about the racial demographics of the Honors College, the AO just hemmed & hawed. We saw one black student in the Honors College office the whole time we were there. Afterwards, GMTspouse & I cynically joked that Bama had successfully managed to institutionalize putting black students in the back of the bus again. I haven’t thought about that “back of the bus” conversation, until I saw the disturbing sorority video. (In fairness, the confluence of special privileges for Honors students and the racial lopsidedness of Honors student body is not unique to Bama).
So, you ask, how is the stupid sorority video linked to the Honors College? It’s all part of a de facto racial caste system. The “Greek row” at Bama is jaw-dropping. There is nothing like it on that order of magnitude on any campus anywhere. The most prime real estate & and most prime location on campus. The greek system is the bricks & mortar manifestation of the school’s social racial caste system and the Honors College complements it as the academic racial caste system."
And cue the violins:
" I genuinely would like to see Bama rise. But with recruitment videos like that, it’s going to be a while before Edward Blum fires up a lawsuit."
Do you have any familiarity with the racial disparities in test scores? Even the state of Alabama has that disparity. If you did know about this fact, then maybe you wouldn’t have come off as clueless as you just did. You are accusing UA of intentionally keeping the percentage of Blacks in its Honors Program low? Really? A student must have an ACT of 28 to be accepted as a freshman. Do you know the percentage of Blacks who score that high? visit this link to find out: http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/pdf/profile/AfricanAmerican.pdf
You do admit that other schools also have a low percentage of Blacks in their honors programs, but you continue with your nasty insinuation. Outrageous. What a ridiculous thing to even respond to. But do tell us how that would benefit UA in any way. You do not want to see UA rise. You want to heap scorn on a school that has made great progress.
I meant to say that a student must have an ACT of 28 to be accepted into the UA Honors Program as a freshman. The minimum score for admission to UA itself is much lower. I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that UA should lower the minimum score required for admissions to its honors program. Or would they?
Jim Crow should be offensive and repugnant to anyone, at any point of history, in any region of the country. Just, like anti-semitism, apartheid our anything of similar ilk and hatred…
I have no problem w honors designations for students, and I think the academic criteris should not be watered down. But once u admit students into a school, u shouldn’t relegate the non-honors students to second class status for registering for classes & picking dorms. This only exacerbates the divide.
Racism didn’t die with Jim Crow, and it takes a special type of ignorance to say otherwise (the willful type).
I think Atlanta68’s long list of weirdly written rebuttals proves our points if anything…acknowledge the racism and go from there, it isn’t that hard. Someone that doesn’t have to experience racism really shouldn’t be the one proclaiming that it’s dead in the South.
Atlanta68 is grasping at straws and making loosely formatted arguments to try and act like race doesn’t matter in today’s world. I wonder why.
I haven’t been on CC in days and y’all are still talking about this. Over 600 posts about a recruitment video. Let’s focus on big problems, then we can get mad at the pretty white girls who want other pretty white girls to join them.
Some parts of the non-south are now among the most segregated places in the US. Chicago has long been known as such, for example. Of course, highly segregated sororities are common in non-south places as well. In other words, the segregation mindset appears to be much more widespread than the south.
“Similar” for some people does not necessarily require being of the same race/ethnicity. For example, fraternities generally appear to be slightly less segregated than sororities, and some specific chapters of fraternities and sororities are much more integrated than the other chapters of those fraternities and sororities.
Of course, if most people have a “segregation mindset” (assuming that they will have little in common with people of some other race/ethnicity), then segregation will tend to happen, and they may lose out on potentially interesting friendships and associations.
625 - GMTplus7, your diatribe on the honors program...........under-representation does not equal racism. Racism is treating someone differently because of their race. Under-representation could occur while treating everyone the same and according to the same standard. In such a case, there is no discrimination or racism. It makes no sense to expand this from the sorority to the honors program, where no one has alleged that any African American student has been treated differently than any else.
I’ve NEVER stated that there is DELIBERATE racial discrimination by the Bama Honors College. But if a school segregates its students by test scores, the inconvenient fact emerges that it’s a nearly all white body of students who are given dibs on class registration and housing selection (asians really don’t figure at Bama, bcs they comprise only 1%). And that’s why the AO was uncomfortable when I asked for the racial demographics of the Honors College. No doubt the same racial dynamics are in play at other schools, including at the yankee schools.