Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

<p>Chua views her high expectations of her children as good parenting. She asserts these mom-expectations reinforce her child’s belief in himself-- that he is capable of excellence and needs only to work hard to bring successful outcomes. </p>

<p>But by demanding that one’s offspring are inherently “brilliant” or “gifted musicians,” the parent buckles them into a straight-jacket of the parents’ design. The weight of those expectations can be onerous on the unlucky kid who does not have those top attributes (how many kids can be val or sal?) and after enduring insults, threats, and withdrawal of parent affection for years, continually lets down all his relations and, he’s told, himself. Perhaps the kid learns that, yes, he is very smart and talented as he mom demands–but now he can only also accept that he is very lazy, and–according to the article-- garbage.</p>

<p>Is it good parenting to love the kid in your imagination so much more than the one you gave birth to?</p>

<p>Tonight I experimented by telling my high school son he <em>had</em> to get all As next semester (too late for this one!) or I would be very disappointed because I knew he could do it. It was secretly hilarious because his face went blank and he started working furiously on his homework and studying! Maybe this will work, but I admit I’m scared of “scarring” him for life! lol</p>

<p>I can totally relate to this book. My parents are Lebanese immigrants, and they assert their “eastern” traditions. School above all, A’s or death, piano is a must, and screw social life. Anyway, got me pretty far. Ended up being the valedictorian of my school. Can’t really complain the school crowd sucked anyway. I’m happy with the way I was raised. Yes some fun is permitted, but the LENIENCY granted here for misdeeds is appalling.</p>

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I think this shows a lack of understanding of the degree to which anti-Semitism affected Jews in this country. There simply is not an anti-Asian bias that is anything like it.</p>

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<p>Japanese internment?</p>

<p>While I appreciate that both Asians and Jews (and frankly, anyone who’s not a WASP) are discriminated against–and I’ve seen and heard it–I do not think that discussing a book by a Chinese-American woman, who calls her style “Chinese” is in any way racist. She said it was the Chinese way! She might be right, she might be wrong, but it’s impossible to discuss that book without talking about it in the context of generalizations.</p>

<p>"Um, no, I really do know that. My mom micromanaged my playing the cello, to the point where I truly hated playing the instrument and wished that I could be like my friends, who didn’t have parents constantly pushing them to do their best, and instead played video games and were always on the computer. I SERIOUSLY hated the idea of picking up the cello when I was around 7, but my mom made me. So you’re wrong. Please don’t make inaccurate assumptions. "</p>

<p>It’s not inaccurate to say that nobody can make a definite statement about a counter-factual.</p>

<p>You might have picked it up at eight and become even better. Or a similar instrument.</p>

<p>You simply do not know “what might have been”. Nobody does. You can say, “It’s not likely,” which may be true.</p>

<p>I would just say that there are people who will go to great lengths to justify what they do and how they were raised, and the argument always goes, “My parents did it to me and I turned out fine, so it must be a good idea.”</p>

<p>The problem with this logic is that they are assuming that their coping mechanisms could not have been any better, had their life been different. “Mom spanked me and I didn’t end up in jail, therefore, if she didn’t spank me, I would have been in jail.” “Mom forced me to play the piano using extreme threats of whatever, and I am good at piano, therefore, if she would not have, I would not be good at piano.”</p>

<p>This logical error is called denying the antecedent and it works in real life as well.</p>

<p>“Tonight I experimented by telling my high school son he <em>had</em> to get all As next semester (too late for this one!) or I would be very disappointed because I knew he could do it.”</p>

<p>This is fascinating. Maybe my mixed family is really Jewish? My children are very young and I tell them softer versions of this. (“I am so disappointed you chose not to behave today. I know you could be the good example if you tried. Let’s talk about how to make that happen.”)</p>

<p>I think what is missing is a distinction between strict and high-expectations, which both are possible to do in a calm, reasoned, loving way, and the quotes I have read from this book which are aggressive, controlling, and unkind.</p>

<p>Strict and high expectations does not equal aggressive and controlling.</p>

<p>I knew from the third grade on that I was expected to go to college and pay for it, or I’d be working and paying my own room and board, from 18 on. It was not expressed as a threat. It was expressed as a concern: “Honey, did you do your homework? You know when you move out after high school you’ll need good grades if you want to go to college. I’d hate for you to have to work as a waitress like I did. Let me know if I can make your study environment more comfortable.”</p>

<p>High expectations, clear but calm communication, real consequences, and yet, a loving tone and loving concern.</p>

<p>Okay, she wasn’t always calm, but I know she tried to be. :)</p>

<p>I did not read the whole article, but quite coincidently I just saw something on YT that provides a bit of the counter point of view, re John Lennon’s mum, Julia. It was said in this clip that she was more like John’s ‘sister than mother’, a kindred (free) spirit, a banjo player, an active encourager of John’s forays into art and music (vs school; didn’t dislike school per se or *force *John to do art, but seemed to encourage his ~spirit). John said she was his muse.</p>

<p>If John Lennon had a ‘chinese mother’ as depicted in the article, the world now would not have Imagine.</p>

<p>[YouTube</a> - the truth about John Lennon](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)</p>

<p>about 4:29 or so they talk about Julia.</p>

<p>Different strokes for different folks , I guess. The very title of the article seemed fascist, so absolute. No subjunctive. But not as catchy as saying ‘Why some mothering styles found in some immigrant far eastern cultures - and in some immigrant western cultures - seem to produce children who are over represented with accomplishments that our culture deems successful.’</p>

<p>Methinks that the title and tone of the article is a lot about clicks and views.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that there are many, many kids who are high achievers - who become their class valedictorians or talented musicians – without undue parental prodding or involvement. And there are many highly accomplished and able young people who do not attain some sort of title, award or recognition who are equally as deserving of recognition – I mean, the kid who graduates #3 in their class isn’t exactly a failure. </p>

<p>I personally would have a lot more respect for the kid who is self-motivated and self-disciplined and does well, but doesn’t “win” – than one who wins an award or recognition, but only because of the incessant demands of a controlling parent. I mean – it’s the same as going to a 5th grade science fair and seeing a bunch of projects that clearly were done with the hand of an adult --I’m more impressed by the kid with an imaginative but less sophisticated and less well presented project that obviously was done without outside help. </p>

<p>So the question I would ask is – what do the kids of over-controlling, micromanaging parents lack, that they need so much parental intervention? Why are those parents doing wrong that they are unable to build enough motivation in their kids, so the kids will do things on their own? (I mean – when my kids were little, I would remind them every night to brush their teeth – but I’d see myself as an utter failure as a parent if they hadn’t figured out how to brush their teeth on their own by the time they reached middle school.). </p>

<p>(My question has nothing to do with ethnicity. The point is, the schools are full of A students who get there with only very moderate parental involvement … so my question is simply, why do the micromanagers have to work so much harder than those other kids’ parents at getting their kids to succeed?)</p>

<p>I think the answer to your question Calmom is not what the kids lack but what the parents lack - and that is “trust”. They simply do not trust that their kids will do the right thing.</p>

<p><a href=“My%20question%20has%20nothing%20to%20do%20with%20ethnicity.%20The%20point%20is,%20the%20schools%20are%20full%20of%20A%20students%20who%20get%20there%20with%20only%20very%20moderate%20parental%20involvement%20…%20so%20my%20question%20is%20simply,%20why%20do%20the%20micromanagers%20have%20to%20work%20so%20much%20harder%20than%20those%20other%20kids’%20parents%20at%20getting%20their%20kids%20to%20succeed?”>quote=calmom</a>

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<p>From what I’ve heard from my own father and many immigrant parents from many different ethnic groups, there’s a common perception that US schools on average are too lax in their academic rigor and discipline compared with those of their countries of origin. </p>

<p>In short, most of those parents perceive the As from US schools as “too easy to get”, “meaningless” because of the wide variability in rigor/quality even among “good” schools, and insufficient in preparing their immigrant/American-born children to excel in ways for the families to gain a “sufficient” foothold of “acceptable success” in both their own ethnic group and in US society at large so they can eventually join the American middle and preferably, upper-classes. </p>

<p>Considering what I’ve seen as a college student and from what I heard from friends who teach K-12 in “good” suburban public/private schools or those who teach/TA undergrad courses at various elite universities…including Ivies, they’re not completely off the mark on that point. </p>

<p>One pediatrician I had who was from an Eastern Europe nation and spent 40+ years in the US at that point summed up the immigrant perception of US K-12 schools like this: In his home country, the academic yardstick was standardized and set so high that an A from the most rural isolated school was regarded as same as an A from a school in the nation’s capital city and such a high grade gained notice not only from the best universities/departments in his home country, but also across Europe. In contrast, he felt there was little consistency in quality/rigor between different US K-12 schools even within a given local region, much less nationwide. For all he knew, an A from one high school may be a D or even an F at another.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, this does not justify the extreme parenting espoused in Chua’s book…especially considering how in my observation…such practices tend to be counterproductive in the long-term.</p>

<p>Both of my American-born kids have been inside of classrooms in other countries, and were asked at some point to lead or teach a class; my son did so in an southeast Asian country. Both kids expressed frustration as to the unwillingness/inability of the students in those classrooms to think for themselves or participate/contribute in a meaningful way to the class. Basically their experience was that the students are trained to memorize whatever is given to them, but they don’t learn to think or puzzle things out on their own. The memorization ends up leaving significant gaps of knowledge. </p>

<p>For example, my daughter was asked to take over an English class on a day the regular teacher couldn’t be there. The students had been assigned to read and learn a passage that happened to describe the layout and furnishings of a room. So my daughter (with her touchy-feely, American-style educational background) decided to give a very simple assignment – she asked the students to draw a picture or diagram illustrating the room described in the passage. In her eyes, pretty easy – but the students were totally at a loss. They had never been asked to do anything like that and they freaked out. They were prepared to recite, word-for-word, the entire passage, if need be – and certainly to read it aloud in class – but to draw a picture of what it represented? (For that, they would have had to know what the words meant, which obviously was not something they were usually accountable for). They also demanded to know how she would grade them – they were much more concerned about the grade outcome then on demonstrating knowledge… </p>

<p>Similar situation for my son. He had written a simple English word on a blackboard, like "good’', and asked the students if they knew any other English words that meant almost the same thing. It seemed like an easy enough exercise, both to get the kids thinking and to help them build their English vocabulary – but again, the students were not generally asked by their teachers to generate their own ideas. </p>

<p>My daughter also spent a week in China where part of the agenda was touring Chinese schools – it seemed like there was a move afoot with “experimental” schools to emulate the American model. </p>

<p>I realize that the overall standard for American schools does tend to be pretty low. But I don’t think that the solution is for parents of very capable kids to demand that they do A+ work, because one aspect of American education is that a lot of time is wasted with busy work and extra credit that doesn’t really enhance learning or understanding. If grades were based solely on mastery of the material, that would be one thing – but grades are often based on completing assignments that are well below the ability level of the kids at the top of the class. So the kids at the top aren’t really served by working for a grade – they are better off if their parents can arrange for enrichment activities to extend their knowledge and experience. It’s the kids on the lower end of the spectrum who are hurt by our poor standards, and they aren’t the ones whose parents are at home supervising their homework. </p>

<p>One of our local t.v. affiliates profiled Chua’s book on the evening news – they spent all evening teasing the segment as being a comparison between “Chinese” and American parenting (the angle from the WSJ article – but when the segment came on they actually chose to challenge the stereotype. They interviewed a young Chinese-American mother (she spoke with an accent, so probably not American born) – she had three very young children and she said she didn’t agree with Chua’s approach and had all her kids attending a Montessori school because she liked the free exploration encouraged in that environment.</p>

<p>I also made similar choices for my kids. I feel that my kids learned how to think independently and creatively, how to express themselves, how to work well with others-- and somehow or other they managed to absorb enough information to do reasonably well on standardized tests. In hindsight I am very glad i took a laid-back approach to school and kept my kids in public schools – there’s a lot more to transitioning from childhood to adulthood than academics.</p>

<p>We all like to think we did a good job with our kids, or at least try to convince other people that we did. Of course, that also meant if others did it differently, then they must have been bad parents. In hindsight, I am very glad I was a lot more proactive with my kids and kept my kids in private schools.</p>

<p>Well, I’m not telling others what to do… but I would point out that in any endeavor, perfectionism is the enemy of efficiency. </p>

<p>It seems to me that Chua, by her own description, put in a disproportionate amount of time for the results she got. I mean - if one kid spends 4 hours a day practicing an instrument, and another kid spends 2 hours a day practicing – the 2nd kid has 2 hours that can be spent doing something else. If there was a concrete. measurable benefit to be gained from practicing 4 hours rather than 2… then it might make sense. But I think it is more likely that there are diminishing returns after the first hour or so of practice, at least when you are talking about an 8 year old kid as opposed to a professional musician. The fact that she took her kids traveling all over the world, and then was unable to see local cultural attractions because of the practice schedule, is a pretty graphic illustration of missed opportunities.</p>

<p>And I think that inefficiency of effort might in the end be what holds some people back.</p>

<p>Quote from post # 467 : "I think this shows a lack of understanding of the degree to which anti-Semitism affected Jews in this country. There simply is not an anti-Asian bias that is anything like it. "</p>

<p>One example in the distant past… [Chinese</a> Exclusion Act](<a href=“http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/]Chinese”>http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/)</p>

<p>Not to rehash the history, however, “those who can not remember the past are condemed to repeat it.”</p>

<p>re post #476: absolutely that is the perception of American schools that is held by the Chinese and Indians parents I know. I happen to agree with them. There have been plenty of times when my children have gotten an “A” on an assignment when their work was mediocre or even poor. Sometimes it was mediocre with regard to their own individual ability, and other times it was just plain mediocre period. I feel I was different from many other American moms because I would always point out the mediocrity to my kids. Other parents thought that was really harsh of me. </p>

<p>Similarly, though, there have been countless times when my kids have been correct, but have been graded as incorrect. Sometimes it was possible to fix that situation (ie. if the teacher is mature and not an arrogant jerk), and sometimes it wasn’t. This problem has occurred with every single middle school science test so far this year. (Our polite correction of earlier tests was felt as “mean” so now we leave the woman in her ignorance.) Also, as pointed out, too much of the grade for some teachers is dependent on silly busywork or arts and crafts, the careful completion of which can be counterproductive if large quantities of more educational homework are due the same day.</p>

<p>Consequently, I think it is short-sighted and unfair to make the “A” the standard. Also, I think sometimes Asian parents are so fixated on the forest that they miss the trees. Certainly most of them are smart enough to figure out the American system of college admissions, but their rigid hyperfocus on grades causes them to be blinded to certain other realities about how Americans view things. That can really hurt their kids’ ability to achieve what would help them in admissions. For example, one of the Asian girls who was never allowed to attend team events probably missed out on being named team captain because of it. The coach saw her lack of attendance as being uncommitted to the team, and was unsure of how well she got along with the other girls. Obviously, no one knows if a team leadership position would have made any difference in her college application results or not, but it wouldn’t have hurt. The marching band at our high school is a pretty big deal. You can’t just miss performances because it leaves a hole in the formations. Asian parents have made the huge mistake of forcing their kids to miss a band competition because of too much homework. Trust me when I say that that was the kiss of death for their kids’ future in the band. They could forget any chance at drum major, or being chosen for solos or special ensembles. Another brilliant boy was not permitted a social life. Come college application time, he was only admitted to the one school where he didn’t interview. His classmates all insist that was because he simply didn’t know how to chat with people.</p>

<p>check out in Forbes.com “For Amy Chua: Song of the Manatee Father”</p>

<p>I’m a Chinese kid. Her method is not the typical Chinese one.
All the people I know in Mainland China, only 2 crazy person act like Amy Chau</p>

<p>Started reading this thread, quit after a few pages, deciding that this was a book I wouldn’t read, Chua was crazy, etc. Done.
Then I read an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, in which the author interviewed Chua and now I’m back to being curious…</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL[/url]”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/apop011311.DTL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;