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<p>However, this type of thing continues into the university level when people in various forums here discuss being pre-med or pre-law. It is widely believed that medical and law schools care little about how difficult one’s undergraduate courses were behind the GPA, so many of the discussions involve people saying “you should not go to _____, because grades are not as inflated there”, “you should major in something that is easy to get A grades in”, etc…</p>
<p>Superior? Really?</p>
<p>re 481: The author lost me at the end, with his unnecessary and off-topic attack on Sarah Palin, and statement that Tiger Parenting was preferable to the American version of extreme parenting (supposedly exemplified by Palin) which would produce reality show contestants as offspring. Also, I disagree with Chua’s simplistic assertion that children left to their own devices would play video games 8 hours a day. Some probably would. But some would read novels, some would play outside, some would doodle and draw, and some would actually still do their homework, practice their instruments, and make their beds. You have to know which kind of kid you have and respond accordingly.</p>
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<p>A large part of this is the combination of cultural differences and educational emphasis.<br>
Many societies outside of the US(Not necessarily just Asian societies) do not tolerate questioning, much less dissent from students and creativity is often seen as subversive to the prevailing educational/larger social order. Interesting how this is also a common mentality in many US K-12 schools IME and those of many college classmates…except we’re raised in a culture where rebelling against authority figures is accepted and sometimes even encouraged. </p>
<p>Most international students and recent immigrants are horrified at how American students are willing to boldly question and disrespectfully disagree with teachers/Professors in class. They view it as gross disrespect of authority and a lack of awareness of one’s “lowly place” as a student. Ironic considering most good US Professors and teachers IME, actually prefer students who question and disagree with them over a passive student who just sits there quietly for 40-60 minutes taking notes. </p>
<p>As for the second point, there is an emphasis on building and solidifying basic skills such as basic writing and quantitative skills. A reason why you won’t find students with deficiencies in basic quantitative and written communications skills being admitted to colleges in many countries outside of the US. The college entrance exams/evaluation systems are often such that these students will be summarily rejected. That is, assuming they are even able to apply to universities as some countries would have filtered them out onto the “non-academic track” as early as 8th grade. </p>
<p>A reason why so many international grad students I’ve met were astounded at the deficiencies in basic quantitative and written communication skills among incoming American freshmen…even those at the Ivies. Nearly all of them said there was no way an equivalent student back in their home countries would have been admitted to an academic-track high school, much less as an undergraduate into their respective nation’s universities. </p>
<p>While there is much to be said for the emphasis on creativity and critical-thinking in good American educational practices, there’s a few issues.</p>
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<li><p>Not every, or even most US K-12 schools are necessarily great at imparting and encouraging such traits. Many are just as authoritarian in their makeup as non-US schools…just that the students are much more likely to rebel against them. </p></li>
<li><p>Creativity and critical-thinking skills are not of much use if one lacks the basic skills necessary to make the most effective use of them. </p></li>
<li><p>IME, far too many mediocre US students and their parents…especially those who happen to be upper/upper-middle class tend to harp on about creativity as a way to excuse the lack of basic skills, curiosity about anything other than mindlessly following pop culture trends, and lack of any work-ethic whatsoever. Worse, while most teachers saw this for the BS that it was, the parents are often able to arm-twist the school/college admins to giving such students a higher grade when it is quite unmerited. </p></li>
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<p>Most of my classmates in junior high and high school would have had the same issues because most never learned how to draw period. That’s the legacy of cutting arts programs in many US public schools over the last 3+ decades. IME, unless we were naturally talented in drawing most students, regardless of whether they’re Asian or not, would feel lost with an English teacher who asked us to draw a diagram and would not necessarily view that as a simple assignment. Worse, I can guarantee most American parents would feel this teacher is wasting time on “useless arts and crafts” and “busywork” when the time, in their view, would be better spent on improving the students’ writing skills. </p>
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<p>True, but when they are under a lot of understandable stress from the college application process combined with their relative lack of the process/immigrant outsider feeling, it is far too easy for them to fall back on what is familiar to them even if it is extremely off-target. A reason why even many educated immigrant parents who did know about the college application process suddenly fell back into believing grades/SATs were everything…because the equivalents from their countries’ of origin was often the sole means of evaluating college applicants for admission. </p>
<p>This is especially the case with East Asian countries where one’s admission to a given university and major was determined solely by how high one scores on the national college entrance exam.</p>
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<p>That’s why I think the US education system is better.</p>
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<p>But we still have some creative minds to lead the way.</p>
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<p>You don’t write; you don’t call; you don’t email; you don’t SKYPE! OY!</p>
<p>"Worse, I can guarantee most American parents would feel this teacher is wasting time on “useless arts and crafts” and “busywork” when the time, in their view, would be better spent on improving the students’ writing skills. "</p>
<p>Our DD had a middle school science teacher who insisted on them decorating their workbook in color (no, NOT using color to illustrate scientific diagrams, just pure decoration) and graded them on it. yet most did not complain. This was in one of the most upper middle class sections of fairfax county, one of the highest income suburban counties in the USA. There is FAR more deference to authority here than folks realize - maybe its a southern thing, or cause lots of families are military, or cause the college chasers cant bring themselves to challenge a teacher - or maybe they think their kids will do well at this kind of thing. But we hardly the hot bed of rebellion one gets the impression of here and in the media.</p>
<p>^where’s fairfax county, brooklynborn? i am guessing a far distance from brooklyn?</p>
<p>The whole thing with the obsession with instruments among some Asian parents is probably book material. In some ways, it is interesting, because classical music that they are pursuing is from western culture and structurally and conceptually is very different then let’s say traditional chinese music. </p>
<p>That said, based on experience, it depends. Some parents for whatever reason see playing a musical instrument, specifically a solo instrument like the violin or piano, as ‘prestigious’, they see this as the height of culture, or in some cases, because classical music seems to be associated with successful people (the image of classical music as the playground of the elite), assume it is part of success. There have been suggestions that with Korean girls (who makes up a pretty large group of classical students), some come from well off families and having musical training, up and to the conservatory level, is considered a plum in arranging a marriage to a suitable husband (apparently, at least at some levels, arranged marriages were/maybe still are common) so that might be some of it in that case.</p>
<p>Based on my experience with the kind of students we are talking about, who have been pushed by their parents to play an instrument and pushed into competitions and high level programs, here is my take</p>
<p>-Some of them, as I suspect the author did, believe that playing an instrument at a high level gives a student an automatic ‘boost’ in terms of getting into a high level college or university. Whether they believe it increases intelligence, or whether they believe Admissions people give it serious weight or that maybe they can get a scholarship because the school wants to boost their orchestra or whatever, it is not an uncommon belief (there is a post right now from a mom on the music major board, with daughters in middle school it sounds like, asking if getting them into Juilliard’s pre college program will help them get into a high level college…). </p>
<p>How do I know this? Because I have talked to the parents, and while they are willing to pay for the lessons, pay the tuition and so forth for summer camps, pre college programs and the like, they are dead set against it because they want their kid to go into something lucrative, music is a means, not the end (and that is true of a lot of parents, believe me; knowing how hard music is, few sane parents jump for joy when their kid decides to go into music IMO, most say something to the tune of <em>oye</em>, if only inside <em>smile</em>). My child has a number of friends who would love to go into music, but there is no way they would challenge their parents on this (some find ways to dual major, which can work).</p>
<p>-some as I briefly mentioned seem to really think it is prestigious to be playing the piano, violin or cello as soloists or maybe as a concertmaster of a big orchestra, which is really interesting because most people would look at them and say ‘Huh?’ and they push their kids in music because of this. It is interesting, the many of the parents of the kids where they would never ever let them go into music push them to do competitions and the same is true for the kids where the parents think it is prestigious, for different reasons. Maybe because it is a measure (to them) of how good a student is, competitions are emphasized in general a lot more by Asian parents then non Asians in my experience. </p>
<p>-Some of them are musicians themselves and want their kids to follow in their footsteps.</p>
<p>-and in some, the kid expressed an interest in playing whether they themselves like the music or not, and got them into lessons and such (obviously very different then the mom in the book)</p>
<p>Actually, I will add that there is a shift here, for whatever reasons the culture is changing and you are seeing Asian students going into other instruments other then the ‘traditional three’. At high level music programs, for example, violin and piano are generally about 80% asian or of asian descent (talking pre college here), whereas on brass and woodwinds and such they are generally a much smaller percentage, but that is changing.</p>
<p>This is an interesting ‘discussion’ on the Times website, that includes kids of Asian descent commenting on the book and on how they were raised:</p>
<p>[What</a> Mencius?s Mother Sought - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/13/is-extreme-parenting-effective/what-mencius-mother-sought]What”>What Mencius’s Mother Sought - NYTimes.com)</p>
<p>Some really thoughtful answers that I think highlight the issues without it being stereotypical or negative.</p>
<p>"where’s fairfax county, brooklynborn? i am guessing a far distance from brooklyn? "</p>
<p>fairfax county, virginia, just outside DC</p>
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<p>Is the “arts & crafty” type teacher you’re describing here a recent phenomenon?? </p>
<p>Never experienced this during my K-12 years…and most of that was in the NYC public school system in the 80’s and 90’s…though a part of that was in a NYC specialized high school (Not Brooklyn Tech).</p>
<p>In fact, I can easily see the current non-Asian principal of my high school railing against teachers like her as “frivolous” and the reason why US education…especially math and science is in such a dreary state.</p>
<p>As far as I know this teacher was entirely sui generis, no one else like her - thank GOODNESS.</p>
<p>She was NOT encouraging intelligent integration of art with science - nor was she even encouraging artistic creativity for its own sake like a wannabe art teacher (DD had a math teacher in HS who for extra credit assigned essays, cause HE really wanted, at some level, to be an english teacher - but HE was also an excellent math teacher) It was pure drudge work, but with crayons. DD hated it. It WAS a waste of time.</p>
<p>musicprnt,</p>
<p>Your observations track with my experience. My chinese cohort at work could not understand why my daughter continued with violin in college when she was not majoring in it. HE said that his ivy daughter tossed the instrument as soon as she got into college.</p>
<p>We encouraged violin with our two daughters one day at a time, one practice at a time. Of course, they are not Julliard quality, but they can play pretty well after 15 yrs of this onedayatatime view.</p>
<p>Why did we do it? Wife and I are not musical. so, no musical pedigree there. We did have a model in preschool class (yes, that long ago - long long ago and … 
) who was going to a closeby teacher, and we plugged along day by day ; yes, suzuki method works. a kid with no musical genes or parents who know nothing ,too, CAN make basic beautiful music with one of the hardest instruments made, the violin, with work that is not too crazy. you can get as extreme and crazy as you want, I guess.</p>
<p>After the squeeks and the sawing, beauty eventually emerges and beauty is an end in itself, we found. Also, w/o being an uber puritan (hey AMERICANS, remember the puritan work ethic! ) or a chinese mother, there seems to be a fair amt of ‘dead time’, time that can be filled w/ practicing an instrument. We never had to make a big edict about ‘no tv’ since practicing naturally filled the time.</p>
<p>Now THIS preschool model fellow student for us DID have very musical parents - were in grade school music ed - and were like the chinese mother (except for music only ; books were just suffered.). At the end of the 16 yrs, they DID go far with music and got into good conservatories while my kid plays beautiful christmas carols at the nursing homes.But my kid also is pursuing non music in college and can write and research whilst the conservatory kids can not do this kind of stuff.</p>
<p>I believe Ms Chua mentioned in the book that one reason for choosing violin and piano for her daughters was the growth potential in these instruments as hobbies for her children once they became adults. I don’t recall anything in the book about doing this to put on a college resume, or aspirations for a career in music. </p>
<p>Also, in our school disctrict, some EC’s in general seem to attract more studious types, and if these are the types that parents want their kids to hang out with, they will tend to encourage instruction and participation in these types of activities.</p>
<p>Another tidbit from the book - piano instruction was part of the tutoring package for the author’s disabled sister as she was growing up. The author’s mother spent hours tutoring her disabled daughter without forcing her to perform beyond her natural limits, and stopped the lessons when the instructor decided the daughter had plateaued. </p>
<p>I think that had the Chua-Rosenfeld daughters showed average or mediocre ability in music, the memoir would have taken a different turn. In the end, this is just one family’s story, not a parenting manual.</p>
<p>“one reason for choosing violin and piano for her daughters was the growth potential in these instruments as hobbies for her children once they became adults”</p>
<p>not to hold you responsible for whats in the book, but there are LOTS of ECs with growth potential as hobbies for adults. Especially drama, which she specifically banned.</p>
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<p>Also, why just the violin or piano? Why not other instruments like drums, bass, guitar? </p>
<p>Personally, I have far greater enjoyment from picking up the electric guitar on my own rather than having a classical musical instrument forced upon me as a kid. </p>
<p>If the latter happened, I would have hated the experience as much as my mother did. Moreover, the idea of playing a genre of music which has been commonly perceived as a way of “breaking into” the Western upper/upper-middle class leaves me with nothing but a disgusting taste in my mouth. Much more fun to plug in a Gibson Explorer/Fender Telecaster, Marshall stack, crank up the volume to 21, and record their reactions with a webcam. :D</p>
<p>Probably because drums, bass, and guitar are considered by some parents to be “not serious” intstruments at best or roads to rebellion, drugs, sex, and <em>gasp</em> rock and roll at worst.</p>
<p>Re post #480 – this post really made me chuckle:
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<p>I just have a vision of “all” the people in mainland China… and only “2 crazy” ones amid a sea of 1.3 billion people. ;)</p>
<p>I am sure he doesn´t know 1.3 billion people in China. Of all the people he knows (maybe at most few hundred), he only know of 2 crazies.</p>