Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

Parents Forum
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<p>^ My understanding is we were not talking about kids who are new immigrants themselves, just kids with parents who are immigrants. Keeping such kids of immigrant parents sequestered in their home or lesson space is not going to help them to adapt to the culture in which they have to grow up and function.</p>

<p>Though having said that, my experience suggests that Canada is far more accepting of immigrants than the US, and the “American hospitality thing” seems to very much depends upon where one lives in the US. NYC, sure…Arizona, maybe not so much.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to respond to DadII’s comment that it’s very American to recognize only the top of the field. On the one hand, there’s some truth in General George Patton’s line, “Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser.” </p>

<p>On the other hand, try Googling “Americans root for the underdog.” This still tends to be a true statement about Americans, and not just in sports. Speaking with some (probably excessive) generalization, we love to see someone who comes from behind to win–probably because we identify with their circumstances. I think Americans also tend to like people with a slightly rascal-ish streak–think Tom Sawyer or Han Solo. The country was formed by rebellion, after all.</p>

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<p>When I lived in South America, it was my experience that I was pretty well-accepted as a foreigner because I hung out with the locals. American friends who mostly stuck with other Americans in the English-speaking enclaves and didn’t really try to learn Spanish or the nuances of the culture were not as well-accepted.</p>

<p>Growing up, my high school regularly hosted exchange students and the same principle applied. If the student tried to join us and fit in, we embraced his efforts and opened our hearts to him. In my children’s high school, I see the same. In a recent mailing, I noticed that the officers of the school’s FBLA chapter were all Asian but one. In fact, when my children were still attending, they saw Asians well-represented in leadership positions in student organizations. When my son was in middle school, I recall that the students even elected a recent immigrant as student council secretary, despite the fact that his English skills were not polished. </p>

<p>Due to his skin coloring and last name, my S was viewed by some as a foreigner. Indeed, he wasn’t born in the US. However, once new acquaintances saw he was no less “American” than they, he had no trouble making his way and succeeding.</p>

<p>IMO, the immigrants who tend to have trouble here are those who self-segregate, or who don’t hide well the fact that they despise Americans as inferior, or distrust us as immoral, or who make it clear they are only here for reasons of financial gain. Unfortunately, I’ve experienced some Asians as considering themselves superior. As a result, they fear that our lazy, undisciplined children will corrupt their children. That attitude breeds self-segregation, and I believe that attitude was evident in Chua’s words as reported by the WSJ. </p>

<p>Also, in another, older thread I tell the story of how I was interrogated by a Chinese mother regarding my son’s academic qualifications (SAT scores, number of AP classes he was taking, colleges he was applying to, current GPA) because her daughter was spending time with him. How do you think that kind of thing makes us feel, oldfort?</p>

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<p>I didn’t read the entire thread, but I would just like to say that I absolutely hate the “Chinese parenting style”. I hate being ‘asked’ to do well in school when I want to get good grades myself. I want to give my best at everything I do, and I want to excel. It feels great to be good at something, and I think every kid would agree. BUT I want to do this at my own pace, my own will, and not because my parents threatened to beat me. They scold me for every little mistake and constantly remind me of how imperfect I am. Even now, when I want to do something myself (such as reading some business books), if my parents tell me that I better be reading these books, I will lose interest completely. It’s like I’m anchored to not wanting to follow their “instructions”. </p>

<p>So the result is that I barely talk to my parents now. I know it’s not a good or normal relationship. I get angry at them all the time, even when I don’t want to. So to all the parents out there, please do not resort to that kind of parenting style. There are better ways.</p>

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<p>On becoming a full member (do we become a full member when we hit post #300?), I must express my gratitude to the CC community that you are an extraordinary group of people full of intelligence, wisdom, and remarkably colorful individuality. I’ve learned so much from you guys, and college admissions is only a small fraction of it. </p>

<p>The sometime heated discussions reinforce my belief that the US will remain a strong leader on this globe for a long time. With smart immigrants from around the world (>99% of the population) and an ideal for ingenuity and individuality at the core of this country, I have no fear that any other country can catch upon us.</p>

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<p>That’s a very normal psychological response, and a reason the Tiger-mom parenting style will inevitably backfire. </p>

<p>I think the science of motivation is actually pretty well understood. Incentives work better than punishment, but moderate and intermittent incentives work better than overblown incentives. That is, the parents who every once in awhile buy their kids a small gift as a reward for good grades, but don’t always do it – will probably have kids who are more highly motivated to get good grades than the parents who promise to pay $20 for every A. There is something very addictive about a system of intermittent rewards – it is what keeps people playing at slot machines in casinos – the sense that “maybe” there will be a reward is enticing. Perhaps part of that is that in that setting a person can feel disappointment but not failure. That is, the kid whose parents always pay $20 for an A will feel like he’s lost $20 if he fails to earn an A. The kid whose parents on occasion reward straight A’s by going out to dinner at the kid’s favorite restaurant will feel disappointed if there is a B on the report card, but won’t have the sense that he’s “lost” his restaurant meal. </p>

<p>Children are naturally inquisitive and feel good about themselves when they gain a new skill or discover the solution to a puzzle – but they can feel demoralized and lose incentive if continually confronted with tasks that are too difficult. The makers of video games understand this very well – that is why they design the games to be filled with little rewards (“treasure” found along the way, a big computer graphic reward when a new “level” is achieved) — and to also adjust itself incrementally to the skill level of the player. If the game is too easy, the player becomes bored; if the game becomes too difficult, the player is discouraged. It is only with the gradual, incremental increases in challenge that the player’s interest is sustained. </p>

<p>I think that individuals differ in their personal tolerance for frustration and patience when learning a new skill or trying to master new material. But the most effective parenting to keep a child motivated would be gentle guiding and deft observation as to level of readiness, and at the same time leaving the child with a sense of having a choice in the matter. The sense of lack of control is also extremely demoralizing – parents can give children a sense of control and at the same time guiding them by providing a limited array of choices. For example, allowing the child the choice of musical instrument to study.</p>

<p>Parent who back off and let their kids have more control can still have a lot of influence – it’s just that psychologically, people feel better if they fell like they have exercised their own choices. The more the sense of control, the higher the motivation.</p>

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<p>Lake post#687- Love your post! I was stuck in cabin this past weekend and have been reading this thread and the one about what “elite” employers look for when hiring. Both discussions are like horrible car accidents, hard to keep your eyes averted, and also stir up a lot of emotion. I would like to point out that these two threads completely contradict themselves. </p>

<p>Jump on over to the “elite” employer thread and majority of the CC’s, regular posters, hold the position that these elite (why the word?) employers only hire from the top 15 schools with HYP MIT and Stanford the clear favorites. Stated over and over, by CC’s who say they hire for the top companies; they hire only from this group of schools and it is the 4.0 student who will get hired over a 3.8 or 3.9 student from other top schools in this same group. Connections don’t matter anymore- it is all on academic merit according to the posters, and State Universities such as Umichigan, Cal, UCLA, UVA do not match up. Oh, and there seems to be only IB, Consulting and Law that are the ticket to the big show. There is no regional differences in hiring practices, HYP trumps even the regional Top Schools.</p>

<p>In this discussion (slug fest) the position is that US College admission is not Stat driven, and in fact a holistic approach is used and is desired instead of perfect scores and GPA’s. The goal of going to HYP is not a guarantee of success and prosperity- it can be achieved in America in many ways. Therefore, the Chinese parents focus on getting top scores is misguided in this country. I guess until it comes to hiring, than it is HYP and 4.0 or no hope of being hired by these “elite” employers. I’m amused.</p>

<p>Last I checked, parents of every nationality, with kids in a competitive HS, do push their kids, and these kids do have schedules that would crush most adults- school 8 hrs, EC’s for 2-4 hours a day and than homework until all hours of the night. There is a lot of “we” are applying to XYZ college or “we” qualified for the sectionals. Kids suck up all of the family time with year round sports for all children in the family. It is totally driven by the parents. Passion only comes up when it is time to write the college essay.</p>

<p>Most of the students in the movie “The Race to No Where” were white BTW. All of the kids in the book “The Price of Privilege” were white and describe the pressure we put on our children too. Much to their detriment. These are people who run studies out of Stanford’s Stress Project.</p>

<p>And shouldn’t we jump on the East Asian Indian parents too? :)</p>

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<p>^ Yes, let’s compare Chua’s child with these 3 men:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>[Evan</a> O’Dorney, Spelling Champ and Math Whiz](<a href=“News | Mathematical Association of America”>Evan O'Dorney, Spelling Champ and Math Whiz | Mathematical Association of America)</p></li>
<li><p>[Michael</a> Viscardi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Viscardi]Michael”>Michael Viscardi - Wikipedia)</p></li>
<li><p>[MIT</a> Spectrum Spring 2010 Championship Spirit](<a href=“http://spectrum.mit.edu/articles/normal/championship-spirit/]MIT”>http://spectrum.mit.edu/articles/normal/championship-spirit/)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>These 3 men are not Chinese. They pushed themselves to the winning position in many areas. But they were not pushed by their parents.</p>

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<p>I doubt that Lulu’s grandpa was pushed by her grand grandparents either.</p>

<p>[Leon</a> O. Chua - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_O._Chua]Leon”>Leon O. Chua - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>coolweather, how do you know that these people were not pushed? Do you know them and their parents personally? Are you privy to information beyond what a random person can google?</p>

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<p>Evan O’Dorney appears to have special needs. Let’s leave him out of a discussion.</p>

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<p>And anyway, is that really the goal of life? To win these competitions? </p>

<p>Success in parenting is about raising happy, healthy, kind, nice children who do their best. Whether that best is HYP or community college isn’t the point.</p>

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<p>David Brooks’ take on this whole matter in today’s NY Times: [Amy</a> Chua is a Wimp](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html]Amy”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/opinion/18brooks.html)</p>

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<p>I learned about them through some people that are in their circles. They were truly self-motivated. Of course everyone can say that I make this up. But it will be more valid if someone can provide the info that they were pushed by their parents.</p>

<p>Seriously, pushing could not make the kids go that far.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, Evan O’Dorney seems like a perfectly normal mathematician to me. Here is a link to his placing second overall in the International Mathematical Olympiad, winning a gold medal:
[President</a> Obama Congratulates IMO Medalist Evan O’Dorney](<a href=“News | Mathematical Association of America”>President Obama Congratulates IMO Medalist Evan O'Dorney | Mathematical Association of America)
Many people who placed below him also won gold medals in the IMO. He was also a Siemens semi-finalist this year (with finalists not yet announced).</p>

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<p>The point I wanted to make when presenting the 3 young men here is people in all races have the ability and desire to excel. They enjoyed what they did since they were still in elementary schools and did not know what HYP was about. Khasyap never visited MIT before he was admitted. He did not apply to HYP. These young men are American Indian, Italian, Scottish or Irish but it does not matter. Their goal in lifer is to discover and the do something that satisfy their mind. Winning in something always has a spiritual value. If not the people would not watch the Superbowl in the next 2 weeks. I enjoy every second of the games.</p>

<p>It’s simply wrong to use Chua’s book to project a negative image on Asian people.</p>

<p>By the way, if some kid is able to attend HYP then he/she deserves a kudo. I don’t feel bitter if my kids cannot make it.</p>

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<p>I enjoyed David Brook’s article. In the last line (“And I hope her daughters grow up to write their own books, and maybe learn the skills to better anticipate how theirs will be received.”) do you think he’s saying that Amy Chua lacked sufficient emotional intelligence or social knowledge to anticipate how negatively we’d react to her book?</p>

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<p>coolweather, I don’t think there is any reasonable way to make such strong assertions based on so little data. You have only heard of these people secondhand, from other people who may or may not be reliable narrators.</p>

<p>The example of John Stuart Mill should be good evidence that pushing can make kids go very, very far; much farther than any of the kids considered here, certainly. Of course, some level of self-motivation was doubtless involved as well, but it is not so straightforward to sort out which led to which when it comes to personal interest vs. external influence. Succeeding in a subject can make you more interested in it.</p>

<p>I also don’t think that it’s reasonable to assume that, because you haven’t heard anything about someone’s parents pushing them, this means they haven’t been pushed. Parents have every reason not to go public about pushing their kids; just look at the condemnations the “tiger mother” has drawn from the public for her book.</p>

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<p>Evan O’Dorney’s appearance on one of the morning news shows clearly demonstrates that he has some unique challenges and needs in terms of being able to interact with people. I really think we shouldn’t be including him in this discussion.</p>

<p>Anyway, my response to Chua’s daughters playing at Carnegie Hall is “great for them” and then I go on my merry way. I certainly don’t feel like a failure as a parent because my kids won’t ever play at Carnegie Hall and frankly don’t even play an instrument. So what? Those aren’t my goals.</p>

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<p>My son played at Carnegie Hall - he was even concert master of the orchestra. Amusingly he wasn’t the best violinist in his high school, but the two young women who were better didn’t meet the school requirements. In any event many high schools do this - the educational foundation spends big bucks to rent the space and then you get to say “My kid played at Carnegie Hall” it’s a lot of hooey.</p>