<p>Allow me answer that. Those who didn’t get to be the top will be disappointed but will get over it. If they were raised with the high standard, they’ve been disappointed before and learned to deal with it. Not different from everyone who wants to go to an Ivy when they don’t get accepted.</p>
<p>Apparently when Chua’s elder daughter came in second in a math contest, her mother had her work through 2000 extra problems so that she would be at the top the next time. I don’t think your answer really covers the situation, Iglooo. It’s not a one-time outcome, it’s ongoing.</p>
<p>(This is assuming that you were replying to post #999, Iglooo, about multiple students who all have to be the top. I don’t mean top in the nation, just top in math/physics/history etc.)</p>
<p>QuantMech, I don’t see anything wrong with people not looking happy if they thought they were going to be a gold medalist and didn’t. Why should they look happy if they are disappointed? The issue is Can they get over their disappointment? I bet most if not all of them can. You seem to think being unhappy is permanent and disappointment is not something you can get over with.</p>
<p>I am sorry I don’t see anything wrong with going over the problems. Isn’t that what you do when taking practice SAT tests? You go over the wrong problems so that you get it right next time.</p>
<p>This is the same issue that I had with Nancy Kerrigan, when she won the silver medal and not the gold at the Olympics, and acted disappointed. Even young people ought to have the perspective that placing well in world competition is a great thing! And a bronze is not a disappointment!</p>
<p>(Not trying to justify a bronze in retrospect: Neither I nor anyone in my family ever won an international medal of any sort.)</p>
<p>Also, of course I understand a brief period of disappointment when a student learns that a hoped-for gold did not materialize. On the other hand, I think the disappointment should be over by the end of the award ceremony. Some of these photos were taken outside, in the sunshine, and it seems to me that they were probably the day after the awards, at the earliest.</p>
<p>And, c’mon, Iglooo, no SAT or practice test has 2000 problems. The math test the elder daughter took did not have 2000 problems. Substituting a reasonable response (“going over the problems”) for an unreasonable one, in order to justify the unreasonable one, is just not right.</p>
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<p>Ew, you have got to be kidding. Measuring the “success” of parenting by winning competitions? Does that mean that the parent of the A student is more successful as a parent than the parent of the C student? It doesn’t make a bit of difference if the A student is a jerk whereas the C student tries her best and is kind … all that matters is the grade at the end of the day?? </p>
<p>I guess parents of mentally challenged children won’t ever be “successes” as parents.</p>
<p>What a morally bankrupt and repulsive line of thinking – to measure parenting success by whether the kid wins competitions.</p>
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<p>I don’t see anything wrong with working problems to learn (although 2000 seems a bit excessive). I can also understand the pursuit of being the best. </p>
<p>Howver if being number one is the only metirc for success of this form of parenting, it will fail byits own standards far more than it succeeds. In my kid’s class there were probably around 200 Asian kids. Assuming even 25% of the parents employed this methodology of parenting, since only one student could technically be the very best, that means the method was successful in one case and failed in 49 others.</p>
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<p>Sigh. The issue isn’t sleepovers per se - they are just one means to an end. The issue is allowing children free time to play, socialize with friends, think their own thoughts and not always be driven towards achieving goals. How is keeping a 7 yo at the piano through dinner, bedtime, and into the night compatible with that? How is insisting that a child practice piano – note the word “insist” as opposed to “child wants to” – consistent with that?</p>
<p>What kind of loser couldn’t have figured out that you could send the 7 yo to bed, and say “tomorrow’s another day” and nothing would be different in the long run? Chua has no shades of gray in her world view. It’s either all black … practice, practice, practice, even when sick or on vacation, being #1 is everything – or all white … you’re raising the next Snooki who couldn’t multiply 7 x 7 in her head if you paid for. She has no shades of gray. Why should that be respected or admired?</p>
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But we can’t know how many of those prize winners (or pianists, or mathematicians) who happen to be Asian are the products of “Asian-style parenting.” And even if they are, we can’t say the parenting “works” because the kid happens to win a big-name prize. What about the kids who are raised that way who don’t win the prizes? </p>
<p>I’ve been wondering how Chua can insist on her kids being #1 - what about the competition? Some of them may want to be #1 too - and they may even want it for themselves, which is a pretty powerful motivator.</p>
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<p>There are two responses to placing second in Intel (or being on the Olympic team but not getting the gold, or getting into a top 20 college but not HYP, etc.).</p>
<p>One is pride at what one has accomplished and gratitude for the opportunities – and recognizing that you’re still getting a fantastic education / learned a lot about science / had the cool experience of representing your country at the Olympics / etc.</p>
<p>The other is thinking of oneself as a loser because you aren’t #1, or worse yet, being told by your famliy you’re a loser / you’ve disgraced them (as Chua related, when her father told her she had disgraced the family when she got a second-prize award in something as a child).</p>
<p>Why <em>shouldn’t</em> that second train of thought be held up for disdain and ridicule?</p>
<p>I disagree that “Because it’s cultural, we should all just accept it.” I traveled to Saudi Arabia last year (burka and all). Suffice to say that I’m plenty condemning of their culture and how they treat women, and I don’t resort to “well, you know, it’s their culture and who I am to judge.” I sure as heck will judge.</p>
<p>That’s not to say everything about stereotypical Western parenting is terrific – I’d be just as embarrassed to raise the next Snooki as I would to behave like Chua – but you know, it’s the US that everyone wants to emigrate to and be successful in.</p>
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<p>Maybe none of them employed that. In my D’s class it’s about 5% asian. None of them are at the top. They are good but not the top-top.</p>
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<p>Exactly. Is there really someone on this board who thinks that the parents of Intel-winner were “more successful” in their parenting than the parents of Intel-trier? (I haven’t a clue what the levels of Intel-ness are.)</p>
<p>Thanks, Pizzagirl, your first four paragraphs (in #1010) make the point better than I was making it.</p>
<p>(Perhaps I should now go away embarrassed because you’ve made the point better than I did. 
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<p>I am wondering about that, too. I also realize that it could be a good cover for disappointed parents. “Oh you know, they are saian kids who won xxx with monster moms. No way my normal/gentle/humane/whatever kid can cpmpete against?”</p>
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Well,first of all, Amy Chua is an Asian, and she’s criticizing sleepovers.</p>
<p>Second, I wouldn’t presume to tell Asian parents in Asia whether to have sleepovers or not. However, I think once Asians decide to move to the West, they need to consider the impact on their children of keeping them separate from the culture they’ve chosen to live in.</p>
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<p>I only want my kid on this list if this is an activity that he or she wants to participate in. Then I won’t care where they place because they are doing what they enjoy.</p>
<p>I want to raise my kids to be independent thinkers. I want them to choose their extra-curriculars based on what they want to do and nothing else. I want them to make that choice even if it works against them regarding their college applications.</p>
<p>Amy Chua would argue that a kid who isn’t directed will just play video games, (I’ve heard her say this). I don’t think so. There might be some of that at first but I think that a kid left to their own devices will gravitate to the activities that have meaning for them. If they do that then they won’t care if they win because they will be doing something that they enjoy and it will mean a great deal to them.</p>
<p>Also I agree with QuantMech, Pizzagirl is in rare form on this thread.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl is always very well spoken and sure of what she has to say is right ;)</p>
<p>But I have to ask, since I don’t think Pizzagirl’s kids played and instrument - have they?</p>
<p>I am asking because coming from a perspective of a parent whose kids have been playing from a very young age (Suzuki), I do understand how important it is to practice every day, even when on vacations. When my kids were little, skipping practice for a few days would put them way behind where they were prior to that vacation. Honestly. And when older and much more adept at their instrument, they would not forget and regress but they would not make a fast enough progress. Playing Mendelssohn violin concerto, a very fast piece, you really have to practice every day to keep your fingers moving. And if the goal is to go from a speed of 144 to a speed of 160 and more - you have to keep your fingers in a very, very good shape.
So even though I am not Asian, from very young age my kids have been travelling with their violins almost everywhere they went. And I have also taped the score to the TV ;), although usually we would take a little music stand with us. And let me assure you, my kids have no goals of playing at Carnegie or even majoring in musics.</p>
<p>Chua also undermines her argument when she says this:</p>
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<p>But from her behavior, what she really means is this:</p>
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<p>And therein lies the problem. Because most of the time, you won’t be ‘the best’. So if you are subtlely telling your kids that nothing is fun until you’re the best, that means most of the time, you won’t have fun.</p>
<p>You don’t have to be playing at Carnegie Hall at age 7 to enjoy playing the violin. </p>
<p>And I remember reading somewhere that Chua admits in her book that she is “not good at enjoying life”. If true, it’s not surprising at all.</p>
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<p>Aren’t you forgetting we had something similar in our own society?? Which was not only approved, but even sanctioned by “Enlightenment” based governmental institutions such as the Supreme Court in 1896 and many state/local governments well into the 1960’s and in the cases of a few states like Texas, the 1970’s. </p>
<p>What’s worse is that it was done on the basis of one’s immutable characteristics, not one’s occupation. At least in the above quoted situation, the ban could be lifted after two generations if the actor/prostitute quit his/her occupation whereas if you were born of immutable characteristics considered unacceptable by the dominant society, you’re screwed unless society changes its policies and attitudes…whether by choice or more often…through dissenters challenging the prevailing social order. </p>
<p>Many who tried to preserve the old social order are still with us and have shown how agitated they can get at the thought that more with “unacceptable” immutable characteristics are being accepted into high positions in society…including the positions of Supreme Court Justice and our President. </p>
<p>There’s also still some manifestations of it going on today and its effects are certainly being felt in the present. While criticisms of the above-quoted issue in Imperial Chinese society is fine, please don’t forget that we have our own skeletons to deal with. Especially when government sanctioning of them is recent history and some of these skeletons are still alive and kicking depending on the individuals/groups one has the dubious honor to encounter.</p>
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Maybe not. Actually, probably not. That’s not the point.</p>
<p>The point is that if 10 or 20 of them did try this method, then 9 or 19 are going to fail to meet their own expected outcomes. </p>
<p>And of course, I’m talking about the method, not anything to do with the ethnicity. I think you could say my own German dad had a little Tiger Mom in him. Although I’m sure not quite this relentless.</p>