Battle of The Spouses and S - making the $$ decision

Parent Cafe
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<p>OMG OP, our husbands could be twins! H also looking at the spreadsheet and thinking NO BRAINER in choice of the full-tuition waiver vs very expensive school with no aid. Both have top ranked programs in son’s area of interest but cheap-U is a very low ranked university outside of son’s area while top-school is a top 20 (maybe top 10) in the country. Do the much better general academic offerings justify the 4X COA? We can pay without taking loans, but very painful decision. My solution is to make Husband go with son to both schools. Went to cheap U this past week and it helped S be more positive about cheap-U and be open to turning down top-20. This week they go to visit top-20 mega bucks U and husband has promised to be equally open minded to see the benefits of the expensive choice. I think it is a tough choice but just like OP and OP H, we are carrying our biases because I went to private U of choice and husband went to night school and then state U. </p>

<p>I recommend that you send them off alone to visit school 3 and 2. Make son articulate why he prefers 2 and show he understands what he/family is giving up by turning down the free tuition school. It is important that you do not put words in his mouth but make him take ownership of the choice along with your husband and you. You may be surprised how it comes out.</p>

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<p>I would remind H that “low price” is not synonymous with “good value,” just as much as “high price” isn’t. “Value” = what you get relative to what you pay.</p>

<p>I would throw School #3 out right now. </p>

<p>If, after visiting, S really wants School #1, it’s a question of how much he wants to absorb. My personal limit for <em>student</em> loans is in the $20K to $25K range for four years…YMMV.</p>

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<p>I agree with that range TheDad - at the most.</p>

<p>H is going to school #2 tomorrow w/son. I have told my son to take ownership of the visit as far as pointing things out to his dad, asking questions to the college staff they meet, etc. </p>

<p>One step at a time. :)</p>

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<p>Time for H to do some information gathering. Ask him to come to the dinner table with the following:</p>

<p>What is the freshman retention rate? Some schools have a 95+% retention rate which mean their kids are happy and eager to return. Others have much less. </p>

<p>What is the four year graduation rate? School #3 is not a bargain if you have to pay full freight for year 5 & 6.</p>

<p>What are the quality differences? For instance, your H could save some real money if he would trade his current vehicle in for a 1978 Yugo or a 1965 Schwinn bicycle. But the quality of the transportation would be . . . probably a heck of a lot less. </p>

<p>Ask H to assess the above three so that HE is looking at more than the first year pay page. </p>

<p>Also, remind all that some of the money on the table is stuff you are already paying (ie, not additional out of your pocket). Right now you write a weekly check to the grocery store. In a few months you’ll write a smaller check to the grocery store (for you and H) and another check to Dining Services. </p>

<p>Finally, look for other dollars. If S is willing to forego a car at college #1, then you will save a lot in insurance/upkeep/gas. If your health insurance covers S, you may be able to trim $2K off the “fees.” Does S have any AP or IB credits? You may find that college #1 has policies that give him 15+ college credits for high school work, saving you a semester’s worth of tuition. All of these things come together to make a big difference. </p>

<p>Our S had a full tuition ride at the state flag ship school. He attended an admitted student weekend at Dartmouth and came home quiet and nervous. I had to use my Mother’s Intuition to see that he loved, loved, loved Dartmouth but didn’t feel that he could demand it. He understood the family finances. It made sense for him to stay local. We took a deep breath and said “GO! Follow your heart!” His heart has beat Dartmouth Green ever since. He has soared. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t have given the big (hah! Green!) go light if he were eager to attend a lack luster school for a weenie reason (as in “my buddies are all going to Zoner Haven College and I want to turn down big dollars to go there too.”). </p>

<p>Xavier was in the news recently for their ardent nun who keeps the basketball players on track for graduation. Man, I am liking that! So you pay more for an atmosphere of dedication to education. Isn’t that worth . . . a lot? A classy, sophisticated, determined environment doesn’t come cheaply. </p>

<p>Please do pencil out all the options and see what you can make work.</p>

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<p>It’s so interesting to see the way and the differences in the how we all look at the situation.</p>

<p>When you mention the nun story above (just as an example) THAT’S the kind of environment I want my S in - and I must say, he himself is one to look through the crowd FOR that kind of environment. Always has. </p>

<p>I see other’s points about $$$ and the fact that debt free is a wonderful way to live. </p>

<p>I just truly see that college is “home” for 4 years. I want a “home” that offers more than a little space to roam, nurturing/dedicated “family” members, and a few desirable perks along the way (like a great cafeteria and work out space) cause home is someplace you should enjoy and enjoying relaxing in after a hard days work.</p>

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<p>3 points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You describe #3 as “very small” LAC. My son started off at a college about the same size (you said roughly 1400 students) – and he did not continue there. There were a combination of factors that led to him leaving after 2 years, but “very small” was one of them. The environment was constraining and there really was no where to go academically as he grew & changed. I don’t mean that the classes weren’t challenging – I mean that the menu was limited and that in turn limited growth and exploration. And he wanted a very small college – that was just about all he considered. </p></li>
<li><p>Re-do the spreadsheet to factor in the “benefit” part of the costs. You may have to do some digging, but you could look at factors like the number of tenured faculty in your son’s prime areas of interest; research or study abroad opportunities; the sports participation issue. Encourage your son to assign some sort of score or value to these things, based on the objective data. In other words – your son needs to decide how much he values the opportunity to play sports at college vs. how much he values the strength of (for example) the physics department. Lets say that physics is roughly 3 times as important as sports participation, but sports is important too. Your son therefore decides to assign scores on a scale of 0-5 for sports, and scales physics on a scale of 0-15. Then he looks at the data and ranks each school accordingly. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>One advantage of the #2 exercise is that it may reveal some surprises for your son – that is, when he starts checking out the course catalog to count up faculty or course offerings-- or checks to see which schools require him to take a foreign language and then checks out the foreign language offerings – or looks at any other metric – he may discover relative strengths or weaknesses he hadn’t considered.</p>

<p>But in the end he will have a spreadsheet that includes costs (and debt at graduation) – and at the same time shows what he is getting for that expenditure. It is no bargain go get something of insufficient value for free.</p>

<ol>
<li> On the other side – are you and your husband actively involved together in managing family finances. Is it possible that your husband has reason to be under stress financially that he has not disclosed to you – for example, a concern about the possibility of being laid off work? Or some other looming expense?</li>
</ol>

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<p>Calmom, your #1 point is exactly one of mine - that #3 might do his first year, but you are at college when you are 21 as well - will it still be stimulating in all the right ways?</p>

<p>No, no reason financially to worry anymore than we/other middle class families worry. My H can retire anytime from his current job, but he would likely due to his age etc., find a second calling/interest.</p>

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<p>Abasket, fwiw, my D took out $22K in loans and has had no problem paying them down with a job around $40K/year. In fact, she’s ahead of schedule. But she was extremely disciplined on what she would pay for rent, settling for a 2 bedroom-1 bath place…sharing a bathroom with a roommate…that requires a two-step commute, bus/subway, instead of closer or cleaner.
Being able to pay down her loans was a major part of her financial calculus.</p>

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<p>We are facing a similar dilemma as the OP and I really appreciate the tip about comparing the course the catalogs. I will get my son to do the same thing this weekend with the two schools concentrating on his area. I think this could be a real help and, as suggested, may be surprising.</p>

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<p>Be careful about comparing courses in catalogs. Just because it is listed, does not mean that a course is taught every semester, or even every 2 semesters.</p>

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<p>For UG, financial issue is a major one. If one is intending to teach HS, most likely he will need to go to Grad. School. Does he needs loans entering Grad. School? </p>

<p>I am very happy that my D. (no teaching intentions) will enter Grad. School loan free. So, she has flexibility to choose better school and not the cheaper one. Grad school is more important.</p>

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<p>*Abasket, fwiw, my D took out $22K in loans and has had no problem paying them down with a job around $40K/year. In fact, she’s ahead of schedule. But she was extremely disciplined on what she would pay for rent, settling for a 2 bedroom-1 bath place…sharing a bathroom with a roommate…that requires a two-step commute, bus/subway, instead of closer or cleaner.
Being able to pay down her loans was a major part of her financial calculus. *</p>

<p>Ahhh…very responsible! Also sounds like she doesn’t have the financial burden of a car. :slight_smile: Many new grads “reward” themselves shortly after getting their first real jobs by buying a car (not necessarily a luxury one, but one that requires a sizable car payment).</p>

<p>$22k in loans is also a reasonable amount…about half the amount of her salary. I’m much more in favor of that guideline than the one that uses the full amount of salary as a guideline. :)</p>

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<p>M2CK, a car would be a liability where she lives, a necessity where we live. She “lucked out” in that regard. Of course, when she finally does get a car, I suspect she’ll have to spend a fair amount of time learning to drive again. But in a number of cities…NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago, Seattle…one can get by without a car pretty well.</p>

<p>Los Angeles? Fugghedaboutit. Especially if you have to live in a less expensive area and are commuting to a more expensive one for work.</p>

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<p>I think #2 sounds like the best option, but let me point a couple things in favor of #3.</p>

<p>EFC calculations can be messed up. Ours is over half our income because we made the “mistake” of saving too much money. So less than EFC suggests affordability, but it might not be that clear cut. Also, you need to take into account the stability of your job(s).</p>

<p>Maybe #3 looks old and dated because #2 is spending money to look good (fancy gyms, dorms, etc.), but #3 is focusing on education rather than pizazz.</p>

<p>You don’t know all the faculty at #3. There are great teachers (and bad teachers) at every college.</p>

<p>How are the career placements at #2 and #3? Do graduates of #3 really have more difficulty landing the first job compared to #2? Also remember that the difference between colleges for jobs disappear after the first job or two, though maybe #2 has better networking (in addition to the fonder memories). The difference also disappears with graduate education.</p>

<p>Anyway, where is your S in this argument? He’s old enough to get a summer job, so if he wants #2 that badly, he can help pay for it. (Maybe there is work study in FA of #2; that wasn’t clear.)</p>

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<p>S will definitely help pay for it - that’s a given, he knows it and will willingly work summers and works study. </p>

<p>Re: faculty at #3 - we met a few of them. During the scholarship competition (which he won the full-tuition) there was a luncheon with teaching faculty at our table (table of 8 or so). Even though S and another student mentioned they were interested in teaching, they did not really attempt to engage them or elaborate about their program. I don’t know, that seemed like an opportunity to me.</p>

<p>Update: S and H are on their way back from the visit at #2. S sounded very, very positive, H sounded positive. They met with the coach who S LOVED and who took a lot of time with them to talk about how to fit a sport in at college. They had a tour with a freshman currently in the sport who put my son at ease about the combining sport/academics as a freshman. Coach asked what were S’s top 3 schools and when he heard about the full-tuition at #3 he told my H and S to march over to the admissions office and talk to the staff. They did (so proud of son AND H for doing this - sounded like S led the conversation and did a great job!) and the staff person gave us a course of action that seemed somewhat positive for doing a package appeal - not counting on anything of course, but you can bet we will get moving on that! </p>

<p>Will be anxious to talk more with them when they get home. :)</p>

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<p>Aren’t cellphones wonderful? You have all this early info and it’s only mid-afternoon. Good luck on the continued family decision-making.</p>

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<p>Your update sounded encouraging!</p>

<p>My impressions: Your son loves sports and has the opportunity to play a varsity sport at #2. As a mom with a sports-loving son, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to tell hin he could not go to that college solely because he was offered a full-ride elsewhere. Also, if he is interested in teaching, the ability to coach a sport would greatly increase his employment options!</p>

<p>Note that the person who regretted sending his or her first-born to an expensive college had six other children to send to college. If you have other, younger, children, that should indeed be a factor. If not, your circumstances are certainly different.</p>

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<p>Forget #3 - they are willing to give him a full-ride because kids with his ability don’t go there. Go for #1 or #2. Pick the Jesuit school, even if he has to get a job on campus - you won’t regret it.</p>

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<p>I liked the sounds of #1 and #2. But, your #1 choice is sooo superior in so many ways (sports, education, making connections, camaraderie, etc.), especially for your son’s sport, that the next option is quite a distant second.</p>

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<p>Tell kids who want to help financially. the best help is getting very high GPA in college and receive Merit college based scholarships. It is much harder than work though, but we are talking about much much more $$ than any of thier work will provide. Yes, it is very worthwhile to focus on academics and work your … off to have an awesome college GPA.</p>