<p>If they take away the gold that China got for team gymnastics then Paul Hamm needs to give his gold medal to the South Korean gymnast who got bronze 4 years ago. I think according to IOC rules once the medals have been handed out, the results can't be changed(At least that's the BS reasoning they gave when Paul Hamm didn't have to relinquish his). Seriously if China loses this gold medal it will show to me that the West will always have their way. I even have suspicions that the age limit in gymnastics was some kind of ploy to screw over China since the rule itself really makes no sense(The point of the olympics is to find the best athlete regardless of age).</p>
<p>ari, "justice prevails"</p>
<p>umm...not exactly.</p>
<p>As of now, IOC's gesture to investigate shows that only the "administive procedure of justice" prevails. The end result of "justice" is a totally different story, just like any case of litigation. Like any situation, there are always different layers of truth, depending on which one you prefer to hear...</p>
<p>Personally, I prefer the real raw stuff...stuff that you don't get to hear on your evening news</p>
<p>Really I find this all very fishy. </p>
<p>Lets assume that they really were underaged.</p>
<p>Can we agree that as bad as the chinese government is, they are smart? If so, then we have a problem. </p>
<p>The 2008 olympics is pretty much the most important even to China. They have been preparing for it and perfecting every single bit for many years. I find it hard to believe that they actually would forget to get rid of all the evidence that those gymnasts were underaged... I mean it's in their own country, it's not hard at all. And to claim they were 12 or 13 or something just a few months ago? That's not possible. They aren't stupid enough to make such an obvious mistake. </p>
<p>
[quote]
All the good work China did to put on these Olympics could be forgotten because of an unnecessary, arrogant move by the government. Why risk everything to put a 14-year old in the competition when they could have replaced her with an of-age 16-year old gymnast? Sure, He is a better gymnast than the Chinese gymnasts who were eligible to compete, but with the judges they had at the Olympics, would it really have mattered?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>uh huh. Like the judges don't rule in favor of the US.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I even have suspicions that the age limit in gymnastics was some kind of ploy to screw over China since the rule itself really makes no sense
[/quote]
I agree the rule doesn't make sense, but no it's not some ploy to screw over China. It's implemented on every country, not just China... it's fair. It just doesn't really make sense.</p>
<p>dungja, If I remember correctly, the reasoning why Paul Hamm got to keep his medal was because the South Korean gymnast missed the deadline to protest the scoring results. In this case it's different, because if the girl is in fact underage she never should have been allowed to compete in the first place. </p>
<p>P.S. I do still think that Hamm should give his medal back, though, it's good sportsmanship.</p>
<p>@username, the argument that the government isn't stupid enough to make such an obvious mistake is a weak one. By that logic, no one would ever fail doping tests, because, what the hell, they knew they'd have to take them. Nothing changes the fact that there are now multiple documents listing He as 14, including one from a government site.</p>
<p>IOC investigation? What IOC investigation? that's what they'd like the media to hear. Underneath the so-called "investigation", it's business as usual. The Chinese Government's spent over 40 billion on the games, plus a brand new skyscraper office complex for the IOC headquartered in beijing. The IOC's generated over 2 billion in terms of revenue from the beijing games plus unprecedented publicity before 25% of the world's population. Like any seasoned diplomat, Jacque Rogue will understand the weight of the matter.</p>
<p>whoever said that Liu Xiang FAKED his injury.............................no comment. or i might get in trouble</p>
<p>
[quote]
including one from a government site.
[/quote]
show me the site.</p>
<p>normally it would be a weak claim. However given the time China spent trying to perfect the games, and everyone who is looking into every single aspect, it really is highly unlikely they make such a foolish mistake.</p>
<p>"I agree the rule doesn't make sense, but no it's not some ploy to screw over China. It's implemented on every country, not just China... it's fair. It just doesn't really make sense."</p>
<p>Yeah maybe i was gettin a little hot headed on this and I'll admit I have no evidence backing my theory up. Just wondering though what is the reasoning behind the age limit then? I mean is it a health concern? I'd assume it'd be more dangerous for older people yet there seems to be no age maxiumum for olympic events(I even vaguely remember a 50 or 60 some year old woman competing in the olympics in Athens). There's no good reason for it so I have no choice but to be suspicious and wonder. </p>
<p>And at Mike... I thought the deadline was in fact before the medals were handed out. So once the medals are handed out the deadline would have passed. But you could be right since I'm not too sure.</p>
<p>honestly, i don't give a crap whether anyone's underage. if they'r good enough to compete, then good enough for me. if anyone of authority is against that, go find evidence and kick the kids out. what i don't get is why ppl make such a big fuss out of it.
and about women's gymnastics, the judges made the decision. it's not like they'r all chinese or somethin that ppl think the final score was a case of cheating. IMO, the tie between liukin and that chinese girl (forgot her name sry...) is broken in a completely fair fashion....it's jsut all about gettin to the bottom of the scoreboard and diggin out that 0.0000001 difference or somethin.
what i see a lot nowadays are just bunch of complaints about how the chinese cheated their way through. first the age thing...then the tie breaker. WOW, excuses.</p>
<p>^yournamehere, the tie-breaker was odd, but Liukin accepted the defeat rather graciously, according to interviews and press I have seen/read. The age thing is NOT an excuse. Did you hear about how the IOC is investigating the ages? A security expert found the government pages that stated she is only 14.</p>
<p>dungja, the deadline might be the medal ceremony, I don't really remember.</p>
<p>username, here is the alleged site. It was found in some chinese search engine cache, I believe.</p>
![http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkUaeM7papk/SKs2VLMl8BI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Y164K2Hq0uw/s1600-h/baidu-busted1.jpg%5Dsite%5B/url">http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkUaeM7papk/SKs2VLMl8BI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Y164K2Hq0uw/s1600-h/baidu-busted1.jpg]site[/url</a>]</p](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkUaeM7papk/SKs2VLMl8BI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Y164K2Hq0uw/s1600-h/baidu-busted1.jpg%5Dsite%5B/url%22>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkUaeM7papk/SKs2VLMl8BI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Y164K2Hq0uw/s1600-h/baidu-busted1.jpg%5Dsite%5B/url</a>%5D</p){kind=link}
<p>I don't speak Chinese, but this was the link provided in the other thread.</p>
<p>"The USOC also argued that changing scores after the fact was a violation of the rules of the competition (under which gymnastic scores must be disputed immediately -- before the gymnasts move to the next piece of equipment, but certainly before the medals are awarded) and that second-guessing scores set a harmful precedent in that the judges at the event had to make the decisions and nothing would ever be finalized if second guessing and video review of entire competitions after they ended were permitted. Hamm supporters also pointed out that Yang's routine included 4 'hangs' instead of the 3 allowed, an error that, if caught, would have resulted in a penalty of .2 points, removing Yang from medal contention." </p>
<p>This is what the USOC said according to wikipedia about the paul hamm controversy. So I assume that since Paul Hamm got to keep that medal the rules state that you can only appeal something before the medal is handed out. Of course it is an assumption but a fairly certain one. Anyways if this is true than China technically can't have the gold medal taken away since the team was already handed the medal. So if it is taken away I'll be ****ed because of the hypocrisy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The USOC also argued that changing scores after the fact was a violation of the rules of the competition
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think this applies, because it would be a disqualification, not a score change, wouldn't it?</p>
<p>Either way, I feel bad for the girl, it's not like she really had a say in the matter.</p>
<p>The US coach did dispute this, just the Olympic wtvr didnt listen.</p>
<p>Oh wow, if the girl and team gets stripped of their medals, I blame the Chinese government. Like Mike said, they had no choice to compete is my opinion as well. She is an amazing athlete. I hope their futures will not be compromised by government's falsification.</p>
<p>baelor, what i was tryin to say was that a lot of ppl seemed to talk about both things at once, thus making them sound related. and the "complaining" about the chinese girl's victory over liukin...accept the fact, don't bring other stuff into the fact, making the decision appear biased.
maybe i read too much comments etc on this yr's women's gymnastics competition. is it just me or is everything so mushed together, even when they'r not related. idk, just my opinion. </p>
<p>i didn't think the tiebreaker was odd...it would've been MUCH better if both were awarded gold medals. but since the rules did not allow 2 ppl in one spot i guess, that i was the best way to break the tie. if i'm not mistaken, it was based on both girls' average point reduction per event or somethin?... if i'm not right, correct me please. but if i am, i think it was totally fair considering they probably didn't allow more than 1 person with the same medal (gold, silver, or bronze)</p>
<p>and also, as i've stated before, age shouldn't be a barrier. so what if she's 14? how come the olympics don't set an age limit for the OLD ppl? like when ur over 41, u can't compete anymore? especially for gymnastics.</p>
<p>okay, i'm missing out on a lot of the things that ppl r sayin here....got a little lost. lol. i'm not willing to dig any deeper than what my eye's are seeing. why's the government involved in this? did the chinese actually admit that the girls were underage for the olympics? wow that's kinda weird if u ask me. if and once they make that decision to fool the public/judges about the girls' ages, they should not reveal the truth cuz that's stupid.</p>
<p>Yes, but there were some articles published that disagreed with the tiebreaker ruling. I don't know what they were saying exactly because I'm not a gymnast (they used a technical term). The point is that Liukin accepted 2nd place. The USA did not complain to the IOC, as far as I know.</p>
<p>But they have a right to complain about the ages of the gymnasts.</p>
<p>The two events are not related. You're right, the people talking about them as such shouldn't be. But they do fall under the justifiable discontent with the Olympics. It's all about appearance, even if it's masking corruption and depravity. Like the opening ceremony: Photoshopping fireworks in? Really? I mean, come on. And telling a 7-year-old that she wasn't cute enough to sing? I'm sorry, I find the repugnant. People are meshing them together probably because they're not happy with the whole thing.</p>
<p>"willing to dig any deeper than what my eye's are seeing. why's the government involved in this? did the chinese actually admit that the girls were underage for the olympics? wow that's kinda weird if u ask me. if and once they make that decision to fool the public/judges about the girls' ages, they should not reveal the truth cuz that's stupid."</p>
<p>No. The Associated Press found government pages on the internet that stated that He was underage. They magically disappeared from the website within 24 hours. The IOC examined the passports of the gymnasts, obviously issued by the government, and found them valid. They are a proper form of identification.</p>
<p>Why is the government involved? Because there are those who believe that the government is lying to the rest of the world. THEY issued the passports, yet the claim was that THEY broke the rules. What I don't understand is why passports would be proper identification in the first place, considering the fact that by checking them, they are responding to an accusation that the government cheated.</p>
<p>whoa this whole gov't thing is convoluted. my eyes hurt! lol.</p>
<p>yes if that's the rule that the competitors HAVE to be over age 16 (?), then america or any other country in the world has the right to complain about it. but my point and what i don't understand is why should age be an issue in deciding who's qualified for the olympics. they might as well tell the ones over 40 that they can't compete. i think it's just stupid. yet at the same time, i still get the feelin that ppl bring that up BECAUSE liukin didn't win. would they have said anything if she DID? i have my doubts</p>
<p>and about the fireworks...they are NOT fake. i hate it when ppl randomly goes, "oh china couldn't even afford real fireworks!" uh....the chinese invented fireworks. if that's true, then everyone else -- stop using them all at once.
the footages on tv is another story tho. they might want to POLISH the real thing a little bit to give a grander impression. the chinese always had great fireworks...not a bit surprsing to see even bigger and brighter ones at the olympics...heck they've waited for this moment for how long??? </p>
<p>lastly, that little girl situation got me really *<strong><em>ed off. at this point, i'm gonna assume that it WAS true that they dropped the first girl b/c she was not cute enough. F</em></strong> those ppl who made that ignorant decision. she IS cute! if they were gonna cut her out of the ceremony appearance, why the hell did they use her singing? i feel so bad for the girl and yet she only said that she felt honored to have her voice heard...</p>