<p>So we were both right until I thought I was wrong. Then I WAS wrong and you were still right. Then I realized I was right but you were never wrong. Right? Glad we got that tidbit straightened out. I’m sure everyone was on the edge of their seat. <yawn>. </yawn></p>
<p>Sorry, folks. I’m so used to being wrong at my house, I folded my tent early in the face of a greater intellect and added to the confusion.</p>
<p>Since I mentioned Williams College, I think I am responsible for digging out their information.</p>
<p>Here is their cutoff.</p>
<p>[FAQs–Academic</a> Distinctions](<a href=“http://www.williams.edu/registrar/faq/distinct.html]FAQs--Academic”>http://www.williams.edu/registrar/faq/distinct.html)</p>
<p>Graduation with Distinction (Latin Honors)
The Faculty will recommend to the Trustees that the degree of Bachelor of Arts with certain distinctions be conferred upon those members of the graduating class who have met the standards described below. </p>
<p>Students who have passed all Winter Study Projects and obtained a four year average in the top: </p>
<p>35% of the graduating class – Bachelor of Arts cum laude or higher
15% of the graduating class – Bachelor of Arts magna cum laude or higher
2% of the graduating class – Bachelor of Arts summa cum laude </p>
<p>Members of the Class of 2008 graduating summa cum laude: 10. </p>
<p>One student who posted at the pre-law subforum here barely misses summa but still got into HLS. (I would think he is likely very good at LSAT though.)</p>
<p>My child’s school uses the same system as Duke’s. (Do not know the part about “Duke’s complication” though.)</p>
<p>Now we get to see the OCD really come out. :eek:</p>
<p>I calculated based on 2008 commencement data at D’s school:</p>
<p>All bachelors degrees-</p>
<p>4.70% Magna
1.24% Summa
5.94% Total Summa + Magna</p>
<p>BA Degrees
4.04% Magna
1.25% Summa
5.29% Total Summa + Magna</p>
<p>BS Degrees
7.22% Magna
1.23% Summa
8.45% Total Summa + Magna</p>
<p>(Hey, at least I didn’t take it to the thousandths. ;))</p>
<p>Compare these to the 15%-20% magna + summa numbers at some better known schools.</p>
<p>Interpret as you will but my point, if I even had one, is that it’s not always appropriate to assume an extremely high GPA at a lesser known school is easier to get than at a well-known school. The top 20% at my D’s school had very high scores coming in to college, and - by these numbers anyway- it wasn’t exactly a cakewalk for them.</p>
<p>I got out my trusted Peterson’s Competitive Colleges guide (glad I have not thrown it away) and it appears that there are roughly 1616 undergraduates, so 404 students per class.</p>
<p>Your percentages:</p>
<p>All bachelors degrees-</p>
<p>4.70% Magna
1.24% Summa
5.94% Total Summa + Magna</p>
<p>could be “reverse-engineered” back to the number of students as follows (sorry about my stupid “gdb” calculator – it is easier to cut-and-paste in this way):</p>
<p>(gdb) p 404 * 0.0124
$3 = 5.0095999999999998 (5 summa)
(gdb) p 404 * 0.0470
$4 = 18.988 (19 magna)
(gdb) p 404 * 0.0594
$5 = 23.997600000000002 (24 magna+summa)</p>
<p>Please correct my mistake if it is not right.
(It seems we have too much fun doing this :-))</p>
<p>A good SAT math question here: How many students are graduated with a BA and how many are graduated with a BS? (I do not think MCAT would have this kind of simple question, right? :-))</p>
<p>404 was correct (but with attrition I have no idea how it was correct). 321 BA and 83 BS with 1 student getting both a BA and a BS. (I left that alone and counted her twice. She did not factor in much as she was cum laude in both- although quite exceptional as she won one of the most prestigious awards at the college.) And 5 summas, 4 BA, 1 BS. 19 magnas, 13 BA, 6 BS. You did real good. ;)</p>
<p>Edit: Last year at that school there were exactly 2 kids taken as juniors for PBK. It takes a perfect 4.0 there. :eek:</p>
<p>Thank god I go to Penn. 3.8 for summa, 3.6 for magna, 3.4 cum laude. The cutoff for PBK is 3.7 senior year, 3.85 junior year.</p>
<p>^ For neurotic grade-grubbers (BTW, there are no lack of these on the pre-med track), it may not be good enough. (“good” = “inflated grade” here) :-)</p>
<p>A few years ago, I remember that a very competitive premed student from UPenn said that his grade is not as high as 3.9. But with a good MCAT score (likely 38) and stong research ECs, he managed to get into Yale Medical School (if I remember correctly). Given the data Vekat89 just provided here, he might be a summa, definitely a magna, at his school.</p>
<p>Maybe it is better to go back to the high school way, where it is the class rank (rather than GPA itself) that matters.</p>
<p>But wait…there is a problem here: Unlike in high school, different majors may take very different classes. Within the same department, students may choose to take different courses (or different tracks), the grading of which may be quite different. This is especially true once you have passed the lower-division science classes.</p>
<p>A year ago, I heard (not sure it is true though) that one premed in California, who had an MS in biology under his belt, was very upset when a medical school there (UC Davis? not sure here) insists that all applicants take the introductory biology courses, and he needs to go back to take a freshmen class. The reason is that that medical school may not trust the grading standard of upper-division courses which are electives, and it wants all students to take the same classes at their home schools.</p>
<p>To some extent, there is some truth in what these MS believe. A well-known “loophole” for many premeds to inflate their GPA is to take many “independent research type” classes. (I do not know whether it counts as BCPM though. Maybe not.) Most colleges have some rule to prevent students from taking too many of these. Maybe some “extremely premed-friendly” school (I do not know any out there though) may not care about it.</p>
<p>I have read most of this thread, and would like to note a few things. I feel although, some claims are valid, they are biased. </p>
<p>First off, from what I remember what sakky has said “nerdier schools” lack the social skills that med schools are looking for. I think that was a truly biased statement. Yes, maybe the majority of the undergrads study more often but it doesn’t mean they lack social skills. You can’t judge people lacking social skills, because they study more often.</p>
<p>Second, you said schools such as Berkeley lack advising. How wrong you are. How many of you making claims on these schools, actually went, studied, utilize the full potential of the school? Berkeley has a lot of advising for premed and students in general, we have BSP, and other organized premed advising groups such as frats and other organizations</p>
<p>Third, one of you claimed that only a small percentage apply to medical school from cal. Berkeley is a diverse campus with diverse majors, not everyone is going to be a doctor. This is different from other schools who are well known for producing premed scholars, a MAJORITY of them are premed and note they have smaller student bodies, resulting in a high percentage. </p>
<p>Fourth, yes, Berkeley, MIT, etc is notorious for grade deflation and high competetion, but I believe that just comes with the culture of the school and population. CAL and MIT have a high student population, higher population mean higher competition. </p>
<p>I’m a Public Health and Psychology double major on premed track at Berkeley, with a current GPA of 3.5. All I can say science courses are competitive, because more people take them. Grade deflation is a huge deal at Cal, but thats why you have to strive harder and look for the right prof who has a higher grade inflation to be successful. </p>
<p>For those in high school who are looking into med school, please don’t be swayed that going to such school will result in going to medical school, you may have a higher chance yes. Ultimately, it is how you make of it whether you go to IVYS, other privates, or UCS, you make the call to your grade. Don’t assume because of grade deflation it is a bad school, because grade deflation is not what makes a school. Go to a school, you feel you will excel at, be comfortable at, and be happy at. </p>
<p>Though, all you claim, Berkeley is not a good premed program, I love the atmosphere, the people, academics, and culture of Cal. It is a school that truly prepares you academically for grad school. </p>
<p>I personally believe the admission process for med school, needs some serious refining to do.</p>
<p>^ teelogo: Do you think my post, which was posted right before yours, includes biased opinions? I myself is trying to find unbiased suggestions. I am all ears. (BTW, 3.5 from Cal is a very respectable GPA. Congratulation! Last year, there was one non-URM kid from your school with a similar GPA. With some good but not astonishing MCAT, it seems he got into some medical schools – but likely not California ones, as it is overly competitive there.)</p>
<p>– I admit that when my child applied to colleges, I discouraged him from going to schools in California as an OOS student. I did not go to Cal, but I worked around that area quite a long time ago.</p>
<p>2.) BSP and “frats” do not substitute for a premedical advising office, and certainly not for a good one. sakky went to Berkeley and I grew up in Berkeley.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that Berkeley gets atrocious results from a very talented premedical student body. When you see a mismatch like that, it ought to leave you scratching your head about what’s the root of that problem.</p>
<p>^bludedevilmike: okay, maybe they’re not the best, but they are there, and they did help me a lot. I rather have them, then not one at all. If we lack a premed office, then thats something the students should fight for, especially if its needed. But Berkeley is still a public school, and have to cope with the budget whatever the state permits. Then the root of the problem is grades?
I respect you and sakky for your opinions, but I just felt that some of the claims were outrageous. I may be wrong on my second claim, but please offer any further insight on my claims. I’m all ears.</p>
<p>No, the root of the problem is definitely not grades, at least as far as I think. sakky may disagree with me on that.</p>
<p>I don’t particularly object to any of your other three claims, although if I were to get nitpicky I could probably find things I disagree with. For example, a “high student population” neither exists at MIT nor leads to competitiveness, since large schools tend to be UNcompetitive. But there’s nothing there that jumped out at me without my looking for it.</p>
<p>I have been following this thread for a while, but I am still confused. </p>
<p>Is it better to go to a school where you will be better than most of the students there(Uni. of Nebraska, where I am from)? Or, to a well known school like JHU?</p>
<p>Both schools are within my reach admissions wise, but I don’t know which would help me get into med school more. </p>
<p>Simply Put:</p>
<p>Do medical schools really care where you go to college (excluding HYPS)?</p>
<p>To recap salient points from earlier portions of this thread:
</p>
<p>wow thats a great post by brm… idt i saw that one earlier in the thread. thanks for the repost of it shadow.</p>
<p>thanks for the great repost. you said that some very elite medical schools might place some importance on undergraduate institution. would Mayo med school be one of those?</p>
<p>also, in general, do engineering majors have lower GPAs than other majors? and would biomedical engineering be considered an “academic” major (in contrast to nursing which would be a vocational major?)</p>
<p>I’m personally offended FOR students at top undergrads when people claim that their success was partially based on where they went (in terms of prestige giving you a bonus). The Ivy League and other top schools represent a huge chunk of the best and brightest undergrad students. It bothers me that people diminish their abilities and discipline by saying so. Does where you went factor into their opinion of your application? Absolutely. There are “experts” on a large number of undergrads in a given adcom (according to a dean at Dartmouth), and also databases that compile statistics (according to an adcom member at Mayo) on things like average MCAT and GPA for applicants at that school. Say one school has a average MCAT of 33, but a depressed GPA relative to other schools with average MCAT scores of 33. It makes sense that the first school’s students might be at least partially compensated for a given GPA due to this fact. It is also likely that other school factors are considered as well. Ultimately though, I think that (regardless of IF where you go is a significant factor) everyone will agree that what you have accomplished is of more importance than any prestige factors, etc.</p>
<p>Engineers do seem to tend to have lower GPAs, and I have heard that they are considered with this is mind. Understand that there are limits, though to such considerations. Do not lean to heavily on this fact if your GPA is tanking into the low 3.0’s.</p>
<p>I have been reading this post carefully and it seems that many of you are knowledgeable especially sakky and bluedevilmike. According to you guys, most ivy-league schools with the exception of cornell and other grade-inflated schools such as stanford are very good pre-med schools. I know that wash. u in st. louis is very good and duke. Can you please give me some other schools that have very good pre med programs. what about upenn or university of chicago or northwestern. Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>^^ Why is cornell an exception? I do not believe cornell is worse than other top schools you mentioned in their premed programs. Yes, it is a larger school compared to most other ivies. So naturally the SAT scores for their admitted students may be ON AVERAGE somewhat lower as a consequence, but there are still many high achieving students. Heck, there are many high achieving students even at a state university. The best student from my child’s high school in the past 10 years actually went to a flagship state school and had no problem in getting into a top 10 medical school in the end.</p>
<p>BTW, if the grades in Stanford’s pre-req classes are so grade-inflated, why are there no lack of Stanford students who decide to take some of their science classes at schools like Santa Clara University or San Jose State University or UC Irvine in summer? (There was an aricle about this a year or two ago.) If there is a grade inflation at Stanford, they are not these medical school pre-req classes. For a science major there, a 3.7 GPA may be a very respectable one already, I think.</p>