<p>That overt racism is not "present at previous level" does not mean that more subtle, insidious racism or racial insensitivity is an experience parents want to pruchase for their 18-22 yr old offspring - -especially at the going rate of $15-45K/yr.</p>
<p>I know kids who went to Lehigh, a number of them, and most of them, all but one, loved the experience and have done well. One graduate from S's school is an African American male. Doesn't seem to have a problem with the school. Sister is at Vanderbilt and he seriously considered going there, but did not want to be as far from home as she is. There are advantages to being within a few hours of home. </p>
<p>I hear about kids who say that no one spoke to them in college. I have a hard time believing that. I went to a school that is not known for its congenial students, has a cut throat rep, smallish size,and there were always people around to meet. Small non white population, but there was no overt prejudice. Yes, there was some grouping of races, and this still happens, but anyone who wanted to "cross over" was fine. It just wasn't a big deal. Not to say that episodal things could not, would not happen, as they can anywhere. So jerk sets off anti feminist remarks, goes after a religious group, or says something racist, and there is a big brougha. Those jerks could be at any school.</p>
<p>Also, I have found that my perceptions, experiences are not necessarily the same as my kids'. They are indeed their ownselves. Sometimes, I am right, but they were not going to listen to me anyways, but sometimes they just have a different take on things. I would not have picked the college my son did this year, given his choices, but he enthusiastically did so.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, my perceptions are not the same as my kids' - - but my perceptions as a black parent often, though not always, differ dramatically from those of my White friends and colleagues. And I want far more for my D than just the absence of overt prejudice. (Interesting that posters whom I presume to be White, often discount anything but overt racism/prejudice.)</p>
<p>As for the few jerks responsible for racist, sexist, classist or homophobic remarks or conduct. Yes, they can be found at any school. But the extent to which the student body tacitly condone or affirmatively rejects the jerks and their offensive conduct/speech varies radicallyy from one school to another, as does the administration response. There are certainly many schools with a campus culture similar to Lehigh's, just as there are schools more welcoming and with more cross-race interaction - - or less weloming than Lehigh. I want one of the more welcoming campuses for my D. Other parents are free to make different choices for their kids.</p>
<p>And, FYI, one happy black male student at a uni with an undergrad enrollment of about 4500 is statistically insignif in terms of assessing the racial climate on campus. (Heck, you might find one happy black student at Bob Jones Uni - - not that I'm equating Lehigh w/ Bob Jones.)</p>
<p>"Admittedly, I'm pushing her toward the lefty schools because of my own experience attending a center-right conservative private university. The FBI was a big recruiter on campus when I was there. I remember sitting in classes in Philosophy, Statistics and a few others, the only black in the entire class. Nobody would talk to me."</p>
<p>And you're assuming nothing in the world of young people has changed in the last 20, 25 years or so since you were in school?</p>
<p>It amazes me that two colleges in such close proximity have such diverse experiences. D2 is at Muhlenberg, perhaps 15 minutes from Lehigh. We were initially concerned that it might be too conservative for our daughter, but this election has allowed the true colors (no pun intended) of the students to shine through. Obama's camp in particular had a strong ground game at Muhlenberg. Muhlenberg hosted Clinton, Obama, and Biden this campaign cycle, and according to D2's reports after the election was called, there was immense excitement on campus that night. While it does not have as diverse student body as my D might have preferred, the students who are there are very open-minded, and I know they would love to have more minorities represented there.</p>
<p>The morning new reported the arrest of a group of LI high school students charged w/ racially motivated murder of a Latino classmate. This serves as a grim reminder that (1) subtle racism can/does turn violent more quickly and more frequently than a number of posts on this thread have suggested and (2) the small group of jerks can pose a very real threat. </p>
<p>OP, as a parent, you should go with your gut. Your posts indicate that you are very troubled by the climate at Lehigh - - vote with your feet; walk away.</p>
<p>nyc- the issue for the OP isn't just Lehigh. I think it is clear that Lehigh isn't a comfortable fit for the OP (who knows about the daughter). The issue is whether there is ANY college in the desired geographical area (close to their home in the bigot-infested land of eastern Pennsylvania) which meets all the criteria. Swat seems to fill the bill if she gets in, but I will warn the OP that his daughter might encounter lots of scary white people at the Springfield Mall or Granite Run.</p>
<p>mowc is right - I don't think there is a school that will meet the parental criteria for the OP's daughter.</p>
<p>nyc - yes racism exists. Not just against blacks, but latino's, asians, indians even Catholics. It doesn't mean that Lehigh has a chapter of the KKK.
It appears there are a few jerks who attend Lehigh. I tend to agree that this stuff makes news because it is so rare not because it is commonplace.
Nevertheless, Lehigh claims that they are trying to attract more minorities - if the racial issue is the reason for not attending, this should be brought to the attention of the administration.</p>
<p>The major issue is "fit". Every kid is different. Some kids want to break ground and have no problem being the only or the first. Same with women when male only schools went co-ed. Some people who are minorities don't want to bother with ground-breaking and want to be at a place where there are more people like them.
Nothing wrong with it - it can limit ones options.</p>
<p>In the OP's case - I am sure there isn't a school anywhere in the PA/NY/NJ area or even the east coast that would be appropriate for his daughter. There is much more going on here than her being bi-racial.</p>
<p>Sometimes a school is a great fit for the kid, but not for the parent and vice versa. Better it fits the kid, in my opinion.</p>
<p>An RA I know at Vanderbilt indicated that there was an incident whereby someone put comments about "fried chicken and watermelon" over some Barack Obama posters that some Afr Am students had put up on their doors. That doesn't mean that Vandy is Racism Central. There are jerks everywhere. EVERYWHERE.</p>
<p>Plainsman -- What's wrong with the FBI being a recruiter on campus? I don't see why that matters one way or the other. If your dd doesn't want a job with the FBI, she doesn't have to apply. </p>
<p>And you are projecting from your own I-was-black-and-no-one-talked-to-me experience of 20, 25, 30 years ago. When you were in college, it was also a lot more "controversial" to date outside of someone's race. Today's college students, for the most part, don't think twice about biracial dating, unless you're in a super conservative environment like a BJU. Please, stop projecting your dated experiences.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sometimes a school is a great fit for the kid, but not for the parent
[/quote]
I hear you - my second went to a school that I never, ever would have picked for her. It is 600 miles away and everyone thought she would be home in two weeks.
She is a senior and loves it. I have to admit, I get kind of freaked out when I visit!</p>
<p>Pizzagirl - just the point MOWC was making. I hope for her own sanity - she doesn't bring an "intended" home to meet dad until she has already tied the knot! ;)</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the legacy of racism will undoubtedly remain with us for sometime to come. However, I do see a marked change with emerging generations. Thus, I concientiously make the effort to avoid projecting my biases, borne of my own personal experiences, onto my kids. Educating and making them aware is one thing, but automatic assumptions and the prejudging of others is not part of that discourse. I do not want them tentative in their interactions with others. I do not want them susceptible to false innuendo and "red flags" where nothing tangible logically exists. I do not want them walking around entertaining negative or isolating ideals just because others might not automatically roll out the red carpet for them. Racism is a poor excuse for lacking assertiveness. </p>
<p>Although this statement is qualified to exclude certain extremes, I also don't agree that avoidance of places for fear of confrontation is the right answer. Concerns about safety I understand, but why are we so concerned with social comforts? The idea is not only educational achievement, but building strength of character as well. I doubt Obama could have accomplished what he has if he spent a lifetime avoiding certain places and people on the premise of racial insensitivity. The latter applies to many of those we consider national heroes, does it not? </p>
<p>I also think students will be much better served without the hypersensitivities some of us were preconditioned to have when we were growing up. When my kids are confronted with real problems, they will know it, and will be capable of dealing with them accordingly. However, they will not inherently read racism into their encounters on the sole premise that it still exists in various places, or has historically existed where they presently live. The reality that social codes are rapidly changing in this country must be given audience, both in our attitudes and in our actions.</p>
<p>Raising my kids in this way is my contribution towards the effort to heal our historical divide. I believe that if others do the same, we'll increasingly make progress towards putting a lot of this ugliness behind us.</p>
<p>"the issue for the OP isn't just Lehigh. I think it is clear that Lehigh isn't a comfortable fit for the OP (who knows about the daughter). The issue is whether there is ANY college in the desired geographical area (close to their home in the bigot-infested land of eastern Pennsylvania) which meets all the criteria. Swat seems to fill the bill if she gets in, but I will warn the OP that his daughter might encounter lots of scary white people at the Springfield Mall or Granite Run."</p>
<p>Swat too has its incidents, jerks and bigots. Don't get me wrong; it's a wonderful school--just that humans work and study there. </p>
<p>Lehigh, too, is a wonderful school. What I look for is how the community and the administration react to the jerks. Responses at Swarthmore and at Lehigh are very similar.</p>
<p>flvadad,
nice post.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, the poster incident alone would not be a reason for me to cross Vandy off D's list, nor does it qualify Vandy as "racism centra." But there's plenty of settings/experiences that fall short of the abject physical peril associated with overt racism which are, nonetheless, unacceptable. And, to quote an earlier post, even if not overtly racist, I do not care to purchases such experiences for my D. </p>
<p>The poster incident in conjunction with other incidents, Vandy being listed in the top 20 for no/little cross race and the administration's in/action could understandably give reasonably prudent parents pause. And while I accept black families black families may view these incidents differently than White families, I am troubled/saddened by the fact that what are clearly hurtful incidents are dismissed as "happening everywhere" b/c they do not constitute a full-blown racist attack. Yes, cruelty happens, but the goal should be to try to stop or eliminate it, not just shrug it off.</p>
<p>Admittedly, a conservative campus is enough for me to say, "maybe not." And the Lehigh or Vandy incidents would be enough to tip the balance in favor of a definite "no." I understand that others might disagree - - but that doesn't make my choice unreasonable. </p>
<p>Why would any parent chose a setting where s/he felt his/her child would be treated poorly - - whether that writing on the Obama poster or bullied/taunted or treated as other than respected and contributing member of the college community. Isn't that part of what fit is about? For me, if the racial vibe doesn't feel right, that alone is reason to move on - - how could that not be at least as important as the male/female ratio, whether the school is too far/close to home or whether a particular sport is offered?</p>
<p>FLVADAD, very nice post. But be aware that "social comfort" is a big part of fit for many families. I have seen post inquiring about the Jewish enrollment, whether the students are too preppy or too wealthy, whether a kid from the northeast will be happy at a school in the rural south or whether to consider a single-sex school. These are all social concerns - -college is not just about the education, and we want our kids to challenged (academically and socially), but not to the point that they are unhappy.</p>
<p>dr. mom, I agree admin response is important, but the range is unbelievable. Check out mini's posts about the difference b/w the Smith response to a racial incident and that of Williams.</p>
<p>I'd be interested in finding a list of colleges that the OP considers a thumbs up on the comfort factor for race. It is certainly important what the administration and students' responses are to issues, really more than individual incidents. You really cannot prevent individual incidents as they can occur anywhere. You just need one jerk to do something inconsiderate and stupid. The reactions of the school is more indicative of the attitude towards race, than the existance of some small group of students who decide to get active in being bigots.</p>
<p>Perfectly put, FLVADAD. And I agree with MOWC. Helping your D find a good fit does not have to involve telling her in no uncertain terms that 3/4's of the US and at least 1/2 of the rest of the world is full of horrible scarey people and that you will not fund any excursion into enemy territory. You would serve her and everyone else much better by stating your case and then leaving her to make her way. By the time a teen is college age, they know best where they will fit. Give her some guidance and set your price range, but otherwise, don't burden her with your fears. Having hit many a brick wall as a female in a male-dominated profession, I would still want my D to boldly set out with no chip on her shoulder and no fear that such things might happen to her. This is how we keep moving forward.</p>
<p>"And, to quote an earlier post, even if not overtly racist, I do not care to purchases such experiences for my D."</p>
<p>And how about if she loves the school, has friends, etc.? Does having a couple of jerks outweigh all of that? Are there no jerks at public universities or other LACs? </p>
<p>Individual incidents should not be taken as broad representations of the campus culture. Again, that's why they make the news. </p>
<p>I don't know what the campus cultures are like at Lehigh or Vandy--but it's certainly worth visiting or talking to someone about it rather than writing it off based on one incident if your daughter has any interest in either...</p>