<p>Plainsman's posts (not just this one) are as off-the-wall as any I've read on CC. Reminds me a bit of another poster whose obsession with getting his child into an Ivy League school reads like a parody of the stereotypical immigrant helicopter parent. I am highly suspicious of both posters. If they actually are for real my condolences to their kids.</p>
<p>Ooh, and some of us scarey people from the South are on here also. Plainsman is pretty much saying that most of our children are not good enough to go to school with his children. I really feel sorry for his children and hope there is a level-headed mom in the mix somewhere. I think it's time for a moderator to shut this thing down.</p>
<p>Let me see: Born in Newark. Repeatedly called "N_ _ <em>er" by the other kids at my 95% white high school. Shot at by NJ cops when I was 15, while I was standing at a lake holding a fishing rod, the bullet passing so close to my face I could hear it (a buzz). It took off part of a branch that had been hanging at eye level right next to me. Dragged out of cars 3 times as a teenager by the infamous storm troopers called NJ State Police for no reason other than driving with an a big Afro hairdo (it was the 70s). Had one car stripped in broad daylight on Route 1 & 9 by cops who literally pulled out the seats and tossed everything in the trunk onto the ground and never apologized or put anything back. Pulled off the streets by cops for walking along the street holding hands with a white girl. Had my car egged and defaced for parking outside the house of another white lady when I spent the night at her place. Steered by real estate agents to "black areas" when looking for my first apartment--in the suburbs. Told to my face by landlords: "we don't rent to blacks here. And I don't give a f</em> <em>k if you sue." Told I was unwelcome after sitting through a church service --by the white minister! I never said a word in the service, just sat quietly - the only black in the church - checking it out because it was close to where I had moved (Warren County) and I refused to limit my private life to Newark or Essex County. Chased from a gas station in Middlesex County one night, my car hit with a brick and the biggest chain I've ever seen. The explanation: "We don't sell to n</em> _ _ ers!" Stopped, dragged from my car and spread-eagled in BROAD DAYLIGHT by state troopers who surrounded me in four cars, shotguns drawn and pointed. And get this. Here's the beauty of it. When I asked why they were doing this the response was: "lady got her purse snatched. Said it was a black guy." After twenty minutes of this humiliation with rush hour traffic crawling by and gawking at me, an unmarked car cruised up with a white lady sitting in the back seat. She shook her head, after taking one look at me. The sped away. The rest of the troopers carried their firearms back to their cars and left, no apology, no nothing. I will never forget how I was treated. </p>
<p>Naw, I have no reason to dislike New Jersey. Take a walk in my shoes and then be sanctimonious.</p>
<p>By the way, I've never shared my horrific experiences with my children because I didn't want to prejudice them against New Jersey. To my wife, however, I've told all.</p>
<p>Plainsman, you wrote:
[quote]
Naw, I have no reason to dislike New Jersey.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you missed the point that I, and some others, tried to make. I can understand why you may not want to LIVE IN NEW JERSEY. I don't want to live in NJ (though not for the reasons you give). But that is NOT the same as not wanting my child to go to college where kids FROM NJ attend. Where you live isn't the same as being against all who live in that state. I can't see what you would have against the college kids raised in that state in one fell swoop. </p>
<p>If I go into a Black neighborhood and have a negative experience and don't want to live there, that's one thing. It doesn't mean I don't want to associate with Blacks when I go to college some place else. One is a place to live. Another is being prejudicial against anyone who comes from a certain place (or has a certain skin color).</p>
<p>How would you feel if I had been a victim of a crime by a Black person and then said, "my kids cannot go to college with any Black kids." Should I assume all Black people are like the one criminal I came in contact with? Should I write off all Black people? That is similar to what you are saying about kids who grew up in NJ. On the one hand, you don't want your kid to go to a college where there is racial prejudice (don't blame ya) and on the other, you are exhibiting that same sort of behavior and generalizing about an entire population (of kids no less).</p>
<p>There are plenty of families who have felt abused by blacks. When I lived in Baltimore there was a lot of resentment in east Baltimore about what had happened to some neighborhoods and the crime. There were families who had a lot of negative experiences. The reverse is also true. But to blame the entire population is called prejudice, bigotry, racist. New Jersey covers a lot of territory. IT has a lot of people. I don't for an instant believe that every part of NJ is hostile to folks of color. I would hardly call it the most racist state. Or most dangerous state. There are plenty of parts of Pennsylvania that have bigots too. I am surprised you are so cool about Pa. There are those who have had your experience there.</p>
<p>Also you are denigrating those from NJ. That is truly outrageous. Soozievt is from NJ. Probably lived there when you did. Does that make her sight unseen, a terrible person? I think you owe those from NJ an apology.</p>
<p>Plainsman, my kids did not grow up in NJ, but if they had, they'd still be who they are today. I guess you would not want your D to go to college with them. </p>
<p>So, I asked you in an earlier post, the following:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Plainsman, how do you feel about conversing online with those of us who were raised in NJ? Just wonderin'.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ya see, I grew up in South Jersey from 1957 to the day I left for college in 1975. Do you not want to associate with me then? If not, I will bow out of the thread.</p>
<p>I'll be out also since I was raised in the South and Plainsman has a problem with this rather large region also. Don't be too offended, those of you from New Jersey. Plainsman thinks all of the South is out to get his D, as well as Spain, Greece, the majority of the rest of Europe and then there is Ithaca with its "boatload" of "poor white trash". I have complained a couple of times about outrageous comments concerning the South on this forum that slide right by, and I am proud of all of you guys standing up and not letting this go. Plainsman wants to take us down to his level, but we won't do it. I just hope his D can overcome his influence in this matter. I feel very sorry for her.</p>
<p>preironic- I am probably worse than you, because while I did not grow up in the south (despite being born there), I grew up in PA which is almost as bad as NJ in Plainsman's eyes. But, horror of horrors, I have CHOSEN to live in the south and bailed out of the midwest to do so. Not sure what kind of white trash that makes me......</p>
<p>You know - if Plainsman was a white man and came on this forum telling us all how he was mistreated by a black man - he would be considered racist. Probably banned from this forum for his inflammatory remarks and this thread would be closed down.</p>
<p>I can't believe this has gone on for 10 pages.</p>
<p>JustAMomof4: I wasnt' mistreated by "a white man." I was mistreated throughout my early life in NJ! The racial indignities were CONSTANT. I only listed a small fraction of them. I probably suffered more than most because I refused to stay in predominantly black residential areas, or limit my social life to black people. That seemed to aggravate a whole lot of people. Read #143.</p>
<p>And you're right. This has gone on too long and you and MomofWildChild are a big part of the reason. My original post was strictly about the latest racial incident at Lehigh and my concerns about my D's attraction to that school. I didn't make it up. Read the newspapers. It's a valid question.</p>
<p>If you and MOWC want to offer an opinion or theory about Lehigh's troubles, please do. If you only want to talk about me, as if I caused the problems at Lehigh, then you are very misguided and way off track. </p>
<p>Let's get back to Lehigh. Why does Lehigh make these headlines and other local schools do not? Are these incidents a Lehigh a reason for me as a black parent to be concerned? You haven't answered those questions. Instead you just keep talking about me and my opinion about New Jersey.</p>
<p>Plainsman, do you have any idea whatsoever how embarrassingly moronic your comments are? Even apart from the fact that your comments are quintessentially bigoted, it isn't 1975 anymore. None of the kids from New Jersey that your daughter will be going to college with WHEREVER SHE ENDS UP were even gleams in their parents' eyes then. New Jersey is one of the most liberal states in the country now. Obama's victory was never in doubt. </p>
<p>Oh, and you'd better not send your daughter to the University of Chicago. My son goes there, and he was born at St. Barnabas Hospital in Livingston, right there in Essex County, NJ in 1990, and has lived in NJ ever since. Ooh, cooties!</p>
<p>Actually, your daughter, or anyone else, would be privileged and lucky to know, or go to school with, my son.</p>
<p>So put me and my son on the list of those you've personally insulted.</p>
<p>Donna -- New Yorker by birth, New Jerseyite by transplant for the last 21 years.</p>
<p>Plainsman, </p>
<p>People are responding to posts that YOU have written. You did not simply post the initial post on this thread but have made many other posts and comments. As with any discussion, people are responding to the comments you have made along the way. </p>
<p>With regard to Lehigh, if you have a concern, voice it with your daughter. With my kids, we let them pick their schools and had no opinion on the schools. They picked well for themselves. Real good fits. </p>
<p>If you are concerned about your D going to college with any kids FROM NJ, good luck. A whole lot of selective colleges have a whole lot of kids from Joysey attending them. </p>
<p>It is irrelevant in my view about any mistreatment you incurred when living in NJ in your youth. Nobody is questionning the validity of those experiences. You may have experienced a great deal of racism. So, don't choose to live there then. That is NOT the same as your kid going to college with other kids who grew up in NJ. Living there is one thing. Kids who grew up there as a whole? You are grossly generalizing in a very prejudicial fashion and I wonder how you'd feel if one of us said we did not want our kids to go to college with any Black students? Same idea.</p>
<p>Plainsman - I was trying to make an ANALOGY.</p>
<p>You are the one with the excuses. You are the one who can't find a school good enought for your daughter. I have suggested several times that you and she check out Temple University and you have not responded - Why? Is a state school not good enough? The fact that it is in Philadelphia? The students not smart enough? Too many minorities?</p>
<p>About Lehigh - I have given you reasons why this school is singled out as have others. We have tried to explain it to you over and over again - </p>
<p>Let me try one more time.
Fact - Lehigh is very very expensive. It costs about $50,000/year to go there.
I bet that a very high quality applicant with a $0 efc is going to have a hard time affording it. If you are a black kid from the projects - forget it. Only 50% of all kids who go there get financial aid - the other 50% have very wealthy parents who don't mind paying.
The merit aid that is offered is very limited and even with financial aid I bet most families are left with a hefty bill.</p>
<p>Now, don't call me racist for saying this -
Who are the folks with the money? Mostly white. The vast majority white.<br>
There are a lot of very bright, ambitious, capable black kids out there. Go to an inner city high school and look at the black families - most have single mothers. If you don't believe me on this ask Bill Cosby. Really smart black kids from an inner city household headed by a single mother can't afford Lehigh.<br>
Black kids who come from families where both parents are professionals and live in the suburbs are few and far between. They are in very high demand - Lehigh wants them but so does everyone else. This is why Lehigh doesn't have more black kids attending.
This is also why many many schools don't have many black kids attending.</p>
<p>Now - colleges have been integrated for what? a generation? People still like to be with their own kind. This is not racist but human nature. Look at high schools that are heavily integrated - the black kids all sit together at lunch.
Most black kids these days don't want to go to a school with very few black kids. They gravitate to schools that have been able to attract black kids - this compounds the difficulties of recruiting black kids.</p>
<p>So, again, Lehigh is the premier university in the Lehigh Valley and an excellent engineering school in it's own right. The kids that go there are kids of privledge. They are smart kids from well to do backgrounds where education is valued.
When they act like idiots and misbehave it makes news. This stuff is not just happening at Lehigh. It happened at many other colleges from all over the country.</p>
<p>As you can see nothing changes overnight - if you want more black kids going to college and homogeneous colleges to become hetergeneous then take up the fight. Go into Allentown or Bethlehem and tell the black community to take care of their families, that getting an education is important. Go stand along side Bill Cosby and Barack Obama.</p>
<p>Plainsman- You are obviously an educated and intelligent man with a successful career. It baffles me that you believe New Jersey was unique back when you were growing up as far as horrible treatment of blacks. Don't you think this unfortunate experience could have occurred at many other locations in the US? I can easily see areas outside of Chicago being much, much worse than NJ. We are a mobile society, as you yourself have shown. I would venture to say that many, many current NJ residents were raised somewhere else and have no connection to the tormenters of your youth and younger adult years. </p>
<p>Don't try to blame me for the fact that you are getting blasted on this thread. You have made statements that, if turned around (whites about blacks) would get the posters banned from the forum!</p>
<p>I don't care in the least what you think about Lehigh. My issue with you is that there is NO school which you will find acceptable for your daughter. Lehigh isn't a school I would recommend to you, but if your daughter is taken with it, then give it a rest. Wait until the acceptances come in and see what happens. The recommendation that I would give your daughter is to chose based on one criteria- pick the school which is the most distant from home.</p>
<p>Several threads on this board have reported or implied poor relations between students of color and the white majority at Lehigh. </p>
<p>Lehigh’s low proportion of minority students, including Asian students (which is a surprise given the technological tradition there) compared to its peers (aside from Lafayette and Bucknell) may result in a classes that of graduate with a limited understanding of other views. In some technical areas the grads will be fine – accounting, engineering, etc. but I wonder what happens in the arts and humanities, and what will happen to Lehigh grads in an increasingly international work place. </p>
<p>Other peer schools, in ranking and endowment, have around 20% American students of color and > 5% international arudents. Is the meagerness of diversity an threat to the future participation of Lehigh grads (and those of other like schools) in the coming world?</p>
<p>I think the invective leveled against the OP misses his point – Lehigh seems to have what he thinks his D should consider except for a question regarding apparent the absence of camaraderie amongst all its students. His biases about New Jersey are over the top but lead me to some questions.</p>
<p>If an institution has a culture developed over many years, that tradition becomes entrenched. Threats to traditions are opposed even in the forward looking collegial environment. In a trivial case, opposition exists to changing an unsavory Greek life at Union, Colgate, and Franklin and Marshall. </p>
<p>People flee the city to the suburbs to escape the worst of urban life to create their own insular traditions. Is the arrival of ethnic others to these enclaves a threat? I think much of New Jersey is insular and is wary of strangers generally. Some people will rise above and others will actively oppose.</p>
<p>There is a suit against the New Jersey State Police about minority (ethnic and gender) promotions and proportional to state population representation on the force. This by the way is the group that initiated an uproar over DWB stops (driving while Black)</p>
<p>If you don't want your daughter to go to a school with Greek life, that's another reason why Lehigh is a very bad choice.</p>
<p>Goldblot -- Lafayette and Bucknell are not peer institutions with Lehigh. There is overlap among applicants to the engineering programs offered at these schools, but Lafayette and Bucknell are Liberal Arts Colleges, while Lehigh is a research university. Lafayette and Bucknell are better compared to schools such as Union, Colgate, Holy Cross, Bowdoin and Williams.</p>
<p>I am compiling a listing of LACs with their respective ALANA populations (African-American, Latino/a, Asian/South Pacific and Native American), which I will post seperately. I think some people are going to be surprised by what the data shows.</p>
<p>"Let's get back to Lehigh. Why does Lehigh make these headlines and other local schools do not?"</p>
<p>Sigh. BECAUSE YOU LIVE NEAR THE SCHOOL. DUH.</p>
<p>You mean like these headlines from Minnesota?</p>
<p>MinnPost</a> - Colleges face tough balancing act on racial incidents</p>
<p>Has anyone here wondered what plainsman would do if her daughter brought home a boyfriend from NJ?</p>
<p>MOWC has a valid point. I grew up in Texas and racism was (and still is) sickening. I remember, in the 70s, when desegregation became law - there weren't a lot of happy people in my parent's group of peers. My own grandmother was incredibly racist and almost instilled that fear into me - luckily I was at an age where I was just beginning to think for myself, and was able to recognize it. We chose not to live in Texas (had the opportunity, but chose the Midwest) and much of it has to do with the lifestyle, politics, etc. But I would never discourage my kids from going to school there, or any other school that had a lot of Texas students attending. </p>
<p>Plainsman - I can almost guarantee you that, despite your valiant decision not to share this with your kids, the degree of hatred you have toward NJ has shown its head in some aspect of your life. You can't carry around that kind of hatred against an entire state (or population) and not have it your actions, attitudes and behaviors, much less your psyche. I am sorry that you were the victim of so much hate, but pretending like it never existed to your kids may not be the best answer. My bet is if you told them, they wouldn't be too surprised. This is a teaching moment for you, and your kids, if you allow it to be.</p>