<p>I am the parent of carnut. I have to say that even though some schools might check a few things, I cannot imagine that there is the time, personnel or resources to do much checking.</p>
<p>From experience with private schools and public (my son attends private but my sister and sister-in-law teach at public), the cheating is out of control everywhere. I hear stories of students making a lot of $ selling last years tests. I also hear of buying essays and teachers doing their own kids work. At one school, a parent had the nerve to blame the school for letting her kid cheat! I have read many posts on here and I must say that something is way out of whack with admissions and reasons for taking one kid over the other. I am sorry to offend but when I read that a school takes a kid with very low grades and scores, I wonder about quotas and urms and what meeting them is doing to the whole process.</p>
<p>And if admissions can tell that the student has not written the essay, how are they judging the volunteering and ecs. Because my son's gc is so busy with the hundreds of kids he counsels that there is no way that his recommendation can cover it. Just read CC. How in the world does some of these kids have the time to do some of this stuff. I just don't think there is anyone "minding the store" and believe that anyone can put down anything and take their chances...so if one school checks, do you really think they all do. Cause I can name a few that did not and have kids there now that paid for essays and got into trouble but the gc covered it up.</p>
<p>To my knowledge, only one of the schools my son applied to called the guidance office to verify his application. That could have been because they are considering him for a merit scholarship. They are also a school with an honor code, so perhaps they want to make sure the student has integrity and will fit in their community. Either way, it make me feel good that at least someone was being careful.</p>
<p>Kudos to Washington & Lee!!</p>
<p>Of course, if the GC is not reputable, then this won't help either.
And as far as the GC issue goes, in our very large public HS, it is difficult for a GC to get to know a student at all. In my son's case, they reassigned counselors after freshman year because of a resignation, and then his second counselor also resigned half way through soph. year. His current counselor barely knows him, so how good of a rec. could he have written? Oddly, the kids that GCs know well may actually be ones who have had problems, or those who are less mature and need more help and guidance. The strong, intelligent, self-motivated kids just go to get course selection sheets and other papers signed and that's the extent of the interaction. I really hope colleges understand this and students at smaller schools aren't getting an advantage.</p>
<p>Colleges know that some GC barely know the students. Your kids should present the GC with a wealth of information about themselves when asking them to write the report to their colleges. My kids presented each rec writer and the GC with a detailed letter about themselves that was individualized to do with who was writing on their behalf, along with their resume. They discussed lots about themselves and also which traits they were hoping to get across to colleges on their own app materials. They shared experiences they had had with that person in class or whatever the case may be. </p>
<p>As well, there are ways of getting to know a GC if a student makes appointments to go in and check in with their plans for the coming year, other stuff along the way, talking about their hopes for college, etc. Kids can initiate that and find ways to get to know someone.</p>
<p>In any case, to balance the GC who may not know your child, there are two teacher recs who should be chosen because they DO know your child. As well, supplemental recs can be solicited from those who have worked with your child in a different capacity (not another academic teacher)....a coach, a director, a mentor, a supervisor at work, etc.</p>
<p>As a very athletically and academically driven senior in high school, I can attest to the fact that some students do not play sports simply to pad their resumes. I am a girl with many talents and interests. I have only been on varsity cross country and track, have been on both junior varsity and varsity soccer, have done drama, advanced choir, leadership, and school newspaper while taking the most rigorous classes my school has to offer. I participate in these activities because I truly enjoy them all. I also am a college caliber athlete and I plan on pursuing my running career while in college. In addition, I am a two-year captain. Captain of cross country is not merely a title at our school and it does not just come with a handful of useless, worthless responsibilities. I lead by example, (being number one on the team), and I am the team consultant whenever any of my girls have problems. I am the lone captain and it is a title that is very highly regarded. I am a mentor and a friend, and I put a lot of effort in knowing all of my girls and paying attention to their needs. Many have been felt welcomed to the team as a result of my efforts and most have successfully made the transition into the sport with my help. I love helping and I enjoy my leadership position. I would do it regardless of college applications. I would hope anyone with a captain designation would take it as seriously as I do, for it can be a great honor.</p>
<p>on the subject of liberally edited essays & the sat essay</p>
<p>~ i took the new sat twice, the first time my essay got a perfect score and the second time the score was slightly lower because i hadnt finished and the subject got personal and put me on a tangent. neither one of these essays are a good example of how i write. the first one was just a canned basic one, giving the evaluators the typical good answer they wanted to hear. the second essay was unfinished, had a tangent, and too emotional. given another hour or so however, it would have been a good essay that is an example of how i write. hwvr, it wasn't</p>
<p>~ i have a friend who moved to the states from india six years ago. she was in esl for a couple years but since then she's taken "normal" classes. she can speak english perfectly, but she is strangely hindered writing it. it's often very hard to understand what she means, especially when she's writing online on aim or something. two of our friends took her college essay and rewrote it for her. they fixed the grammar and made it comprehensible. and she didn't get into the college she sent that essay to. so one, i think that colleges can tell at least to some extent a heavily edited essay. and two, although i dont really think those two friends should have rewritten her essay, i do think she deserved some help because her grasp of written english is not a reflection on her brain or ability to think well.</p>
<p>Our large high school has never, to my knowledge, played these kinds of games. We have 1 or 2 captains chosen per sports team and awards are few and far between. This has probably hurt us in comparison to other large schools in the area whose GC's have played the elite college game better than we have. Our students are just as capable (i.e. NM finalists, state champion academic team, state champion athletic teams in largest division), but our admit rate to highly selective schools is not anywhere as high as theirs. Our district is also not nearly as wealthy (so the private counselors the other district gets may also be a factor). I have to say though that I love the kids at our HS and that my S and his friends are very giving and sharing of their time and talents with less fortunate people (tutoring, mission trips etc.) - so I wouldn't change a thing. I am very proud of how my kids turned out and feel blessed to have such a great HS with teachers who care about their character and not just their grades.</p>
<p>I should not have said that about sports, many do it for the love of it, others, at our school, espeically in the no cut ones, do it cause they think it will look good</p>
<p>I guess what bothers me a little, and this will ruffle some feathers I am sure, is that sometimes, leadership in sports is given to the physcially blessed, they may work hard, but not necessarilly harder than the slower kid, the shorter kid, the taller kid, the heavier kid, who may have just as much to offer a team with regards to leadership, but are not recognized often because they aren't "the best"</p>
<p>my two sense, cause this is what I have seen in Ds schools, this is not the case everywhere,not with all teams, but with enough to make me wonder</p>
<p>At my S's school, there are 6 boys elected by the entire football program (approximately 350 boys) to serve as captains. The coaches have nothing to do with the selection. Their responsibilities include leading the off season practices and monitoring the weight lifting and conditioning, among other things. The boys elected all tend to be the "leaders" of the team, not necessarily the popular ones or the strongest, biggest, etc. They are the guys who pump up the team and get people motivated in practices and workouts. They are the guys who are respected by their peers for a lot of reasons, one of which is that they are recognized for working harder, not necessarily because they are percieved to be "the best".</p>
<p>i don't know if this has already been said, but i don't really think that an essay written in response to an unexpected, forced question in 25 minutes is comparable to an essay that most seniors spend countless hours writing and editing (and i'm not talking about those who accept help from tutors, parents, etc). particularly if one is a creative writer, the essay on the sats does not demonstrate the true potential of the author because the format is not conducive to any creativity. in addition, there are so many other factors at play when writing the essay on the sats like nerves, time pressure, etc. </p>
<p>at least with the SAT's, everyone's on a level playing field with regard to nerves, time pressure, etc. there's no way to tell if an essay submitted with an application is truly the student's own work. and given what people have reported on this thread about some schools being complicit in application inflation, the kids who actually do their own work are at a distinct disadvantage. not sure what the answer is.</p>
<p>izporter5, I agree with you. The SAT writing puts one under a lot of pressure, not to mention that it takes time to think about what to write, plan it out (outline), and then write it. I'm currently writing a paper for my english class where we have to write a critical analysis. Much of my time and effort has been put into this, which is the only way that I feel I can do well on this paper. I don't know if this has been suggested, but what if colleges require an applicant to submit a well-written paper in any subject, with a teacher's confirmation of authenticity and his/her signiture? But then again, there are some dishonest teachers.</p>
<p>kmh2078, I do agree with you that those who are honest about themselves, are at a disadvantage. But there's nothing wrong with highlighting your achievements no matter how small or meaningless they are. Nothing wrong with showing a little pride in your accomplishments.</p>
<p>I agree that the writing samples on standardized tests are not good measures of overall writing ability, however, they do measure one aspect of writing ability. I think the problem lies with the grading of such samples being SO subjective. It is one way to guarantee that you are actually seeing the student's sample and not the parent or teacher's. </p>
<p>On the subject of sports leadership, I have to politely disagree with the citygirlsmom. I think that often the more athletic students do achieve leadership status from their peers and coaches because they do the most on the field and court to advance the competitiveness of the team, which is the goal. I agree that there are definitely times when the less athletic students may possess traits which make them the most encouraging, spirited and such and then they would make a great leader. I don't think it is wrong for the more talented athletes to achieve captain status, however, just as the most intelligent student on an academic team often becomes the leader of that team. In both of these cases, maybe they deserve it and maybe not. There is definitely more to being a good leader than just talent, however, these things are not mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>In response to bogus achievements, such as 6 captains for a sports team, etc., how about high schools with multiple valedictorians?</p>
<p>I think that is pretty dishonest. Maybe multiple kids were able to maintain straight A's in the same courseload, but surely, a tie-breaker is possible or something. I go to a public school that has shared the valedictorian title before, but usually, something stupid, such as different teachers teaching the same subject will make one student rise above.</p>
<p>pdesai06: Several schools to which my S applied required the submission of a graded paper that contained teacher comments. Unfortunately, not knowing this was going to be required, S hadn't saved any. We finally found one, but it was hardly his best and not at all recent. They also asked for an essay.</p>
<p>A couple admissions deans I have spoken to are unsure of exactly how the SAT writing sample fits in. The main use of a test is its predictive value. Does a 770 predict more success in the curriculum than a 670? Currently, the feeling is that the typical college essay is a much better predictor, and that experienced admissions counselors can, for the most part, tell from a reading of the entire application how authentic it is. Having said that, I do know of schools that have teacher committees to which the students submit their college essays. They are then heavily edited and returned for revision. The process continues until the teachers believe the essay meets the "criteria" for the targeted school.</p>
<p>Rusty Dog, Since my S was voted one of 6 captains, I'm not thinking it is bogus. Think what you want, but it is a big honor at his school (at least in football). It is not a case where the coaches confer a "title" on some kids to give them a resume padder. These kids are elected in secret balloting by all 3 classes of players (fresh, soph, junior) to be the leaders and they actually have to WORK, not just add it to a college application, ie. he had to be at school an hour early for a captains meeting with the coaches to set out the agenda for the next week. There are so many kids in the program, I guess the coaches set the number at 6 so they could split up the practices among the captains. </p>
<p>A football team can easily have 50 players on it. A volleyball team has 10 or 12, 15 is considered a large team. A football team has an offensive team and a defensive team. A volleyball team puts 6 players on the floor and substitutes maybe 2-3 at most for offense and defense. Track has running events and field events. The throwers often never see the runners except while they're running past the shot put pit or the discus ring. The high jumpers and pole vaulters are off in another corner somewhere. They're all doing something completely different from the other. It makes sense to have more than one captain on a track & field team or a football team. If a volleyball team has 6 captains, half the team is captain, and that's just silly.</p>
<p>Haha. 50 players...wow...i can't imagine having such a large tennis team lol. yeah ours is just our varsity lineup and then a couple sets of jv doubles. we used to vote on our captain but the last year and this year, since our coach changed, we just have "co-captains" that the coach just says are who end up in the varsity lineup. </p>
<p>However, about the writing sample. I think it's a very good idea, although I have done way too many of them to support it, I feel that the essay should be on the same topic for all the schools. Perhaps have some kind of quote or question and basically incorporate personal information into it, but writing 15+ essays (some have more than 1) is just way too much of a hassle...</p>
<p>"My philosophy is that if you have to make something up to get into a school, you don't belong at that school and you're only hurting yourself and your future if you go there."</p>
<p>Although idealistic and honorable, it's naive. Face it, most of the students at the top schools come from affluent bacgrounds and had significant help during the admissions process. Most kids at public schools, however, do not have the same kind of help--although they may be just as bright and qualified (if not more.) While I am not saying I condone such behavior--faking applications and lying about achievements--, the reality is that kids from public schools, and not so affluent backgrounds, are usally at a huge disadvantage. They usually receive bad advice.</p>