<p>I'm sure a couple of us didn't get accepted because of padded applications. Nice guys never win, so no one should be surprised.</p>
<p>is there a place for them to post? I hear there is a lot of inflation of qualifications to get into places like Columbia, NYU, Yale, Harvard and Princeton. When the failures happen, I've seen kids in bookstores, bars, clubs, they are lost; many of them should stay in small town USA to begin with and attend school.</p>
<p>On the flip side, there are "missed geniuses" who get knocked out of admission to a school he/she deserves to go to.</p>
<p>Athleticism is overblown. It's good, but as an adult student, students right out of high school are starting to get a little "whiney, impatient, and think someone owes them."</p>
<p>Good luck to all of you, but with the things the way they are in today's society, especially for Engineering Students, Columbia loves to flunk out portions of freshman class not making the grade.</p>
<p>are not so affluent, going to public high schools. The affluent are too affluent, in many cases not too creative, and look at the cheating going on in college right now, a result of folk getting what they want will cheat when they can't keep up with their peers.</p>
<p>"Missed geniuses" are missing out due to the spoiled, rich kid who will commit crimes quicker than an honest kid to get a good grade. </p>
<p>The sad thing is when they enter the work place, I for one, my bosses for many wonder how in the hell some of these kids obtained degrees. They have no scruples about how to act in the work place, God only knows how they made it througt a rigourous study in math and science without cheating.</p>
<p>Layoffs result! A few good kids stay around, but many of them are local to NYC, understand the competition and persevere.</p>
<p>My son was accepted into an Ivy League Engineering program, but would have done better staying in the North, attending a local state school, as we all agree. When it comes down to the cost, if you are in the middle class, where you go is not as important as going! He complains how professors in the south dumb down the coursework for students not able to keep up. This is disgusting, and just unfair to the kid who should have been accepted in a program where rigourous study, not dumbing down coursework makes the grade.</p>
<p>Believe me, after the college experience, it shows who padded and who did not. The young professional that did not pad will do well when it's time to cut the fat!</p>
<p>Take a look at my posts down below, it shows in the future when the padded student just does not make the grade, and cannot keep up! As many of them that want to come to NYC for school, I hope they realize the pace of life is more complicated than academics, and the academics are extremely difficult!</p>
<p>John Doe, my daughter just got accepted to 2 reach schools where her test scores were below the norm. She didn't make up any false claims on her activity list. She has never been "President" of anything, doesn't do athletics, and has no awards. She is actively involved and participates in several clubs & ECs at her school, and she followed the instructions to list those that were most important to her. Her essays coupled with the recs & activity sheet made it clear where here passions lay. </p>
<p>I really don't think that the most selective colleges fall for the phony lists. Maybe the kid who got the teacher to lie in the rec letter will get away with it, but for the rest -- if it doesn't carry the ring of truth, it might backfire. I mean, I wonder how may kids get REJECTED from colleges every year because they have a list of accomplishments that just doesn't seem to fit the lackluster essay they submit and the letters of recommendations that damn with faint praise. </p>
<p>Sure, a few kids will get away with the bluster. But I don't think very many kids lose out to resume-padders. The competition is tough, but its fairly easy for a trained eye to tell the difference between the genuine item and a fake.</p>
<p>"I'm sure a couple of us didn't get accepted because of padded applications. Nice guys never win, so no one should be surprised."</p>
<p>Right, JohnDoe. Just because you were rejected, it's time to trash everyone who got accepted.</p>
<p>Actually, I think that your passivity and tendency to blame others as you did in the above statement may have contributed to your rejection.</p>
<p>You were offered a Harvard interview, but cancelled the day of the interview because your dad couldn't drive you and there was no public transportation.</p>
<p>As I stated on another board when you brought this up a few weeks ago, cancelling did not reflect well on you.</p>
<p>Harvard is a place that gives students a lot of opportunities, and doesn't hand hold students through those opportunities. Students are expected to be assertive enough to go after the things they want to do. A student who couldn't think to ask a friend or call a cab to get to the interview doesn't sound like someone who'd flourish in Harvard's atmosphere.</p>
<p>In addition, your ECs were weak. Playing the piano and getting some relatively minor awards for it, being an NHS member and the best debator on your h.s. team don't stand out in Harvard's pool. You seemed to be assuming that you'd get in because you are 15 and are a URM (black, as is also the case with me) with decent scores (2280 SAT) and grades (3.8 unweighted) and an OK class rank of 6/138.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, however, according to Harvard, their application pool this year included the following types of students: " nearly 2,600 scored a perfect 800 on their SAT verbal test; 2,700 scored 800 on the SAT math; and nearly 3,000 were valedictorians of their high school classes."</p>
<p>And of course, many were graduates of the exclusive merit-based academic programs like RSI and TASP. Such achievements --scores, valedictorian status, RSI, being president of major national student organizations etc. aren't things that people can lie about.</p>
<p>As a Harvard interviewer, I have seen students who padded their resumes. Those students didn't get in. It is extremely easy to catch students in lies. If the lie indicates an accomplishment that would make a student stand out in the pool, the accomplishment easily can be verified.</p>
<p>If the lie is something like padded community service hours or falsely claiming membership in a school, the lie won't matter anyway because hours of service or membership in a school club isn't going to tip someone into Harvard.</p>
<p>Anyway, only students with weak applications bother doing such lies. The strongest students have trouble fitting in information about the impressive things they've actually done.</p>
<p>I also have not seen URMs get in unless they had something extremely strong to offer Harvard. I've seen URMs from privileged backgrounds with old SAT scores above 1500 get rejected possibly due to ECs that did not stand out. </p>
<p>I've seen URMs from low income/first generation college homes get in with old SATs of about 1300, but documented stellar ECs at a national or regional level.</p>
<p>Anyway, your example is an excellent counter to the many people who erroneously assume that being a URM means an automatic acceptance to whatever college one chooses to go to.</p>
<p>"Colleges perpetuate and encourage these bogus leadership positions. On applications, every single one has a blank list several lines in length and sometimes even a free-form question about the applicants' leadership positions. What is the poor kid to do you has only ONE or maybe NONE to fill in? The implication of giving so much space to leadership positions is that a good applicant would have something to put in that space."</p>
<p>??? Colleges are looking for students with the leadership and assertiveness skills to contribute to campus life. College is very different than high school where advisors keep school clubs alive. College ECs depend on students who have the assertiveness and leadership to keep organizations flourishing.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, most colleges may ask about leadership, but aren't likely to reject students for lack of leadership. Most colleges, indeed, accept the majority of students who apply. </p>
<p>It's only the very top colleges for which documented leadership will make a difference, and trust me, bogus leadership positions won't tip students in. What stands out in the top college pools are things like being the national head of a student organization or going to Boys Nation. Those are the types of leadership activities that one can't fake because they so easily can be verified.</p>
<p>well, here is go. i expect the negative comments to come down on my head.</p>
<p>are you all living in never, never land? There is no way humanly possible to be head of everything, get the best grades and scores, have a job and volunteer a million hours, go to church four times a week and teach bible school, be a boy scout and everything else under the sun. you are truly misleading yourself and everyone else if you expect everyone to believe all of this crap. Sorry, but the only kids that i know, (and i have gone to 3 different schools, hang out with kids from a least 10 other schools) that can do so much stuff either don't make the greatest grades or have no social life at all. now, why do colleges not look at these super human kids and wonder how they do it. the hard to get into schools (not ivy) are now expecting you to have the same ablitlies as the ivy schools. i just do not believe that all of these kids really do all of this stuff. so why do the schools even ask for it. do you really think anyone is going to ask the teacher that does not like them for a rec. or do you think most gcs would give a bad rec.
all of these things are so loop-sided that it is a waste of time. go back to the applications that were used 20 years ago and forget about all of this exaggerated junk. you are making kids be overextended, exhausted little robots to get into schools so that you can say our kids go to....
and 1/2 of them can't even get a job when they graduate. get your head out of the sand and worry about whether they are going to school to be something that someone will actually hire them for!!!
Proof: talk to parents that have 22-24 year olds that are willing to take any job just to get one and that now wish their kids had spent the last four years getting a nursing degree, a teaching degree or some degree that is actually useful. They will tell you that is sounds great to encourage your kid to follow his dreams except when they move back in at 23 and still can't find a job. eveyone loves their kids and seems to indulge them but really good parents that have their kids future in mind would give them a dose of reality about life after college.</p>
<p>Northstarmom-
I think you're being too harsh on JohnDoe... c'mon the kid's 15 yrs. old, and just got rejected from Harvard. After reading 7 pages of posts in this thread about applicants who lied in their applications but still got into good schools, anyone can start to wonder if the spot for that one applicant who lied and didn't get caught could've been his. It's natural. You should aim your anger at the few applicants who lie (it <em>does</em> happen), rather at some poor 15-year-old who just got rejected from his top schools. And to make blanket statement that JohnDoe could not have flourished at Harvard, is too passive, too easily blames others, his ECs are weak, etc. etc.... basically attacking every single aspect of his application, is just unwarranted. You don't even know him, attacking him over a few statements he posted on CC. Again, he's only 15 years old... give him a break.</p>
<p>"There is no way humanly possible to be head of everything, get the best grades and scores, have a job and volunteer a million hours, go to church four times a week and teach bible school, be a boy scout and everything else under the sun. you are truly misleading yourself and everyone else if you expect everyone to believe all of this crap. "</p>
<p>But, the people whom I see getting in top colleges aren't claiming to have done all of those things. The people who do what you describe are the wannabees who stuff their resumes with activities that they selected in order to impress colleges. They pursue the activities superficially and without much interest or true leadership (and real leadership is far more than a title), and then are shocked when the top colleges reject.</p>
<p>The successful applicants that I've seen get into places like Harvard have typically 2-3 very strong ECs that they have done at a high level that included their being very aggressive and creative in that activity. It is very clear that they also are doing those activities out of interest, not to look good to admissions. Often, they are pursuing activities that most people would regard as boring or that their parents try to discourage them from doing.</p>
<p>A prime example are the Asian students who may deeply pursue interests in art or journalism even though their parents are trying to force them to be in the math club.</p>
<p>I actually know some of those young people, and I have seen in person the things that they have done. When they go to a place like Harvard, they continue that kind of intense lifestyle. For instance, even though they may be pre-med, they might spend 25 hours a week working for the school paper, where they are paid not a dime and had to work like a dog to get accepted onto the staff. </p>
<p>They continue that way for the rest of their lives because they are wired that way. For instance, at Harvard reunions, class members give seminars, produce musicals, and do lots of other things that most people wouldn't want to bother with at an event that's supposed to be fun. Probably most people's idea of a fun reunion would simply want to see their old friends and have cocktails.</p>
<p>Fun, however, for Harvard people is socializing, having a few drinks and doing things like giving workshops and concerts, including doing all of the planning that's involved in doing an excellent job at something like that. At my last Harvard reunion, for instance, a few classmates spent a lot of their time and money making a documentary film about the class. Why? They found doing that to be fun and interesting. At other reunions, classmates have put together long, comprehensive surveys about the class, and then have analyzed those surveys. </p>
<p>Most people aren't like that, and most people will do fine in life including being able to get into most colleges in the country and having nice careers and lives.</p>
<p>"so why do the schools even ask for it. do you really think anyone is going to ask the teacher that does not like them for a rec. or do you think most gcs would give a bad rec."</p>
<p>Recommendations that help students get into top colleges say far more than, "This is a nice kid and I like her." The recommendations that are telling provide specific examples about extraordinary things the teacher knows about the students' character and intellectual ability. For most students, no matter how much a teacher likes a student, the teacher can't provide such information because the student doesn't have those qualities, which are quite unusual.</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between the student who does exactly what's required to get an "A" and the students who get so interested in the material that they do far more than is required, including doing extra research on their own time and reading extra materials. The top colleges aren't looking for the students who work for the grades, but those colleges do want the students who are fired by their own intellectual curiosity and who also get the grades. (Students who are intellectually curious, but lack the discipline to get the grades, too, are not desired by top colleges either).</p>
<p>felix,
I sincerely think that JohnDoe is a very bright guy who could benefit by taking a productive gap year so that he has the opportunity to develop more independence and assertiveness.</p>
<p>I also think that he could benefit by stopping blaming others for his college rejection. On this thread, he blamed his rejection on people who allegedly pad their applications and he indicated that all of the nice people get rejected because of the liars. On another, he blamed his rejection on his high school's not offering lots of APs.</p>
<p>While understandably, people feel disappointed and sad when they are rejected, how someone interprets their rejection also says a lot about their characters.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, JohnDoe has been accepted to Cornell, so he does have some good options.</p>
<p>My daughters inner city high school has 44 valedictorians
While it attracts top performing students from around the city- has the most AP classes and National Merit Scholars from any public school in the state, it also has kids who are fighting hard to finish high school.
Classes are not weighted, and while students who have their eye on UPenn or USC would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't take AP, some students may take only one or two AP classes their time in high school, or even none. Because of prior academic preparation and skills, they may intend to enter a vocational or community college after high school graduation. But if they get straight As, don't they deserve to be recognized? They worked just as hard as those students who often come from a much different background and social class.
Colleges look at transcripts- they don't just look at GPA, they look at classes taken and test scores as well as essays etc.
The unweighting of grades and high # of vals hasn't hurt the admittance into top schools-</p>
<p>Northstarmom--those Harvard reunions sound like fun!</p>
<p>Granted, the CC community is different than your run of the mill high school community, but honestly, I think some of you would be shocked that many, if not most, high school kids out there are only doing extra curriculars that they want to do, and are not thinking at all about doing things to "get into the right college". I think Northmom can be harsh at times, but I agree that "most people will do fine in life including being able to get into most colleges in the country and having nice careers and lives." What kind of people are being raised that would lie on an application to get into some school that they perceive will somehow make their future perfect? What has happened to teaching children integrity? Is getting what you (think you) want worth being a liar?</p>
<p>I also think that those who were rejected at these selective schools who are blaming on the kids who got in who must have padded their resumes are being sour grapes about things. I agree with Northstarmom that certain passions and achievements cannot be faked. Some of these things kids do are not only verifiable but everyone else writing on their behalf is saying the same thing. People don't make up that they were the state champion or award winner in an activity they have done their whole lives and have someone in that activity writing a rec about it as well. If someone did an internship in their field of interest and the mentor writes a rec, that is hardly made up. Very selective colleges are looking at ECs that have depth of commitment and achievements and those are hard to pad. This isn't "hours of service" or this club or that club, but significant things that would come across in several areas of an application. </p>
<p>My kids knew going into very selective college admissions that no matter how qualified, many still will not get in and they accepted that and never took it personally if a school rejected them because they knew they were qualified but the odds are what they are. They got into most of their schools and have no bad feelings about the one rejection and one waitlist they each received. They knew this was a very possible outcome. They don't go around saying...."I went to a rural public high school that had no APs, poor me." (that is where they went) and so forth. I have a kid who was valedictorian. She knew schools like Yale turn down LOTS of valedictorians. It doesn't mean she wasn't "good enough" but simply the odds that exist. She doesn't think those that got in padded their resumes so she didn't get a spot. Her resume is packed and every single thing in it is true. She doesn't have to make up ECs or achievements. As Northstarmom says, those with the weak resumes are the ones trying to pad. Someone with a solid resume doesn't need to. My kids NEVER EVER did anything activity-wise to "look good for college." Their activities were and continue to be life long pursuits that they would do even if never applying to college. They continue them IN college, in fact. </p>
<p>Others on this thread are commenting that no kid can do all this stuff and keep up good grades and/or is doing it all cause they "have to" to get into college. My kids' lives in high school were insanely packed and busy out of CHOICE. They thrived on that lifestyle. They would refuse to give these activities up. They were excellent students on top of the activiites. One had a perfect GPA in the most rigorous curriiculum and went beyond the HS curriculum and also was ranked first in the class. Both my kids' EC endeavors had them gone all afternoon, every evening and most of the weekend on top of approx. 3-5 hours of homework per day. One even held a part time job on Sat. nights. The EC endeavors were huge committments such as varsity sports, school musical production, 13 hours of dance classes per week far away and many many more....none of their EC endeavors were clubs or minor things that met once/week whatsoever. This can be done but shouldn't be pursued to get into college but rather because a person feels they can't live without these pursuits. They are inextricable to the core of their being. </p>
<p>Right now, my kids are both in college. One of my kids's schedules in college, just this week alone....has her IN SCHOOL for 15 hours per day and all weekend...all required...she is heavily committed outside the classroom and has long required hours as well. She thrives on it. She is getting high grades. She is a Scholar at her school which is one of the top programs in her field of study. My other kid is at an Ivy and is on a Varsity sport and a club sport. Her varsity sport was every day in fall, two full weekday mornings (starting at 6 AM) in winter and ENTIRE weekend every weekend in winter off campus plus missed a full week of school for national competition. She also gets great grades and is an Academic All American in her sport. She was not a recruited athlete by the way. I'm mentioning this ONLY because these things are not padded and I do believe that those with deep seated passions and dedications to EC endeavors, while also being outstanding students, is not something that can be padded. Colleges can tell. I interview applicants for a selective university and I can tell when I interview students as well. They can't make up their sport, their All States in music, their head of an organization, their job, their lead in the school musicals, and way more I have come across. It is hard to talk about that stuff when lying. As well, their recs and other supporting documents support these lifestyles and achievements.</p>
<p>I agree with everyone that says athletics is way overblown and captures too much energy and focus in the schools. And I think there are huge pockets of athletic endeavors, particularly at the NCAA Div. 1 level, that are tremendously corrupting to the goals of a university. (Yes, I do mean football). And in an ideal world, all colleges would adopt the Division III model - no scholarships and no chasing after the big buck. I mention this to fellow parents to a chorus of boos - they look at me like I am nuts - I actually went to school on an athletic scholarship and was lucky enough to be an All American at the Div 1 level - so they think I am some sort of traitor - but while I look back on my athletic days with some pride (heck, when you are middle age, it feels good to think of those days), the primary thing that sticks in my mind was that athletics, and the all consuming obligations it demanded, unduly delayed my adolescence (into my mid-20's), and detracted from my life goals. I didn't feel like I had a sense of purpose that was meaningful until graduate school, and while it is facile to blame only athletics for that, graduate school was the first time I had any energy to focus on studies and intellectual development. Undergrad life was just about cutting corners to get acceptable grades in between tough practices, road trips, and intense competitions. It may be treadworn and corny - but to all of the young people out there - do a sport because you like it and enjoy a level of fitness - but the one thing that no one can take away from you is an education - and the sense of self one gets from really succeeding with their courses of study cannot be adequately described.</p>
<p>Hear, hear! Mam1959, what you say I have heard from other Division I athletic scholarship recipients. Many drop out after their first or second year, others transfer to Div. III schools. Div. I sports is an all-consuming activity which restricts social life, the major a student may select, and may necessitate a 5th year of attendance to fit in the academics or to allow for red-shirting.</p>
<p>Basically there are two kinds of relevant admissions fraud:
1. False Claims
2. Meaningless (but authentic) honors</p>
<p>Dealing with the first one is difficult, but cross checking for important awards, 'random spot checks,' communication among schools about outright fraud, and high penalties are probably the best ways. </p>
<p>The second one is easier to perpetrate on the lower tier schools. The best schools have regional admissions staff familiar with all the schools in their area and aware of patterns of behavior from year to year. They communicate with alumni in the area as well.<br>
This also brings up the other major safety device: good schools put significant weight on alumni interviews. It is hard to fake a recommendation but it is even harder to fake an interview, and experienced interviewers can usually give a general impression that indicates whether the student is likely to be the type to have garnered significant honors or not. </p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, MIT, all put weight on interview outcomes. Harvard does more so than the other two, it seems. Anyway, a real athlete-leader, like a captain of a competitive team, will come across as such. A fake will have a hard time communicating the same passion, and probably won't even think to try.</p>
<p>...and that was the 5th year reunion, with the movie...</p>