<p>When a country is in a trillion dollar debt , and when it is as hated areound the world, when the country is run by corporations only interested in furthering their avarice desires, and when another country like China is going to overtake the U.S. in terms of economic potential, I'd say the United States is on a downswing.</p>
<p>Thanks tabletennis.. couldnt have put it better myself</p>
<p>Read through the post again hawkofwar... i might like to believe otherwise but facts remain.. It might not happen for another 20 years but its going to happen... </p>
<p>The fact that im going there to study has no relevance to whats going to happen to the country.. im not saying i like the scenario but picture this</p>
<p>20 years down the line, oil resources are on the brink of being tapped out.. America with its dependence on oil will have to look to the middle east again.. which it has completely alienated with its hawkish policy at this point... What happens when OPEC refuses to sell to the us? 20 years down the line there are going to be enough people ready to buy that oil, without OPEC needing the US to..</p>
<p>Even if the abov doesnt happen, look at tabletennis' points.. </p>
<ol>
<li>Trillions of dollars in debt</li>
<li>Multinationals running he country (and presidents making laws to furthur the interests of these companies)</li>
<li>The emergence of China in the global market</li>
</ol>
<p>Just out of interest.. Walmart alone imports $ 8 BILLION worth of goods from china EVERY YEAR..</p>
<p>i don't care about the debating...you're the one that thought some1 would actually say Al Gore invented the internet.</p>
<p>you know...your little..."conservatives are stupid" thing is absurd...i think you just say it to p**s ppl off...and it's rather annoying...i'm sick of arguing with little 17 year old highschool juniors that think they're soo smart when with every post, they just make themselves look stupider...your responses make little sense...you always forget a word or 10 and just make yourself look even more illiterate :)...you don't contribute to the debate...you're basically just rooting on those who actually ARE bringing out significant points, and putting down those you disagree with...</p>
<p>furthermore...i think i've made it clear in a number of threads that I don't like GW...soooo...but you know what...i think you should just stop whining over him bein in office, because he's not going anywhere for 3 more years unless he get's removed...unlikely....very very unlikely.</p>
<p>AND...America is not going downhill...the deficit ($487Bil) is decreasing drastically..although...it will take over a decade to regain that hefty surplus built up in the Clinton admin. BUT...to argue like primitive and say that it's because of conservatives as a whole is absolutely mindless...bad president = bad economy...aduh...but like i said...can't do anything about it...might as well work with what we have....live with it, stop crying, because nothings going to change unless Congress stops kissing the pres's @$$...AND...the U.S. still has the largest global economy...yes, we import from China more than any other trading partner...but...the size/strength of their economy will not surpass ours...China doesn't have the several safeguards against economic instability that the U.S. does....in the end...our law will prevail over their temporary boom.</p>
<p>"AND...America is not going downhill...the deficit ($487Bil) is decreasing drastically..although...it will take over a decade to regain that hefty surplus built up in the Clinton admin. BUT...to argue like primitive and say that it's because of conservatives as a whole is absolutely mindless..."</p>
<p>thats just ********</p>
<p>bush has increase nondefense spending at 147% more than Johnson.... and that was the Great Society Programs</p>
<p>Also I find it interesting how these people call themselves fiscal conservatives yet run up the biggest deficits cutting taxes for the aristocracy and granting juicy pork laden contracts to their campaign supporters.</p>
<p>Maybe their brand of fiscal conservativism refers to those who arent billionaires. This congress will be known as the credit card congress.</p>
<p>but you have to see what they're trying...they're attempting the "supply side fiscal policy" theory...which states...by giving tax breaks to higher income individuals/businesses...you'll put $$$ in to the hands of investors...they'll put the saved money in to the stock market, boosting the economy and increasing corporate output...although...supply side has never worked...Reagan tried it and it was a horrible failure....demand side fiscal policy, on the other hand, usually works...give tax breaks and invest in government programs that put money in to the hands of those at the bottom of the economic ladder, who then use the money to buy stuff, which increases demand, which increases a company's need for laborers, which decreases unemployment and boosts the economy...yet...we've had greater disasters in American history...i guess a pres like Bush was inevitable after Clinton's marvelous performance with the economy...boom and bust theory!...for every massive economic boom there is an equal and opposite bust...AND....Bush has been anything but fiscally conservative...he spends like money comes outta nowhere...cuz he's the president and he thinks he can do anything he wants, because he's been a spoiled brat since the day barbara gave birth to em..and do your figures take inflation in to account? j/a.....BUT....this horrible performance might lead Congress to enact some very effective money-saving techniques in the sessions to come, while eliminating unneeded expenditures.</p>
<p>and..porkbarreling is inevitble...and in most cases, it is essential..for example..the "king of pork" is senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia...now...everyone knows WV is one of the poorest states in the nation...the state can't provide for them so Byrd has taken it upon himself to make sure that Congress does to a certain extent....which...it has turned out to be a good thing....Byrd has brought jobs, technology, highway/road repairs to west virginia that the state otherwise wouldn't have been able to supply on its own...unneeded pork barreling does go on, but in many instances, pork barreling is helpful</p>
<p>'furthermore...i think i've made it clear in a number of threads that I don't like GW...soooo...but you know what...i think you should just stop whining over him bein in office, because he's not going anywhere for 3 more years unless he get's removed...unlikely....very very unlikely."</p>
<p>Free speech and the subsequent ability to criticize the government and the president are what hmade this country great. Rregardless of whether or not he'll be in office for another 3 years, everyone has the right and should be encouraged to question the government.</p>
<p>Nahra, China's Economic success is not merely a "temporary boom". It has lasted 25 years so far. That is not temporary...and there is no end in sight. China has averaged 8.6% growth over the last 25 years. At this rate,</p>
<p>And just two months ago, the US had its largest monthly increase in deficit EVER. I would not assume that you are out of the woods. </p>
<p>But the problem is not so much the economy. It doesn't matter if the US goes into a recession. That is part of the economic cycle and it cannot be avoided. What matters is the image of the US. There isn't a single nation on Earth today that actually has a favorable opinion of the US. 5 years ago, almost all countries had a favorable opionion of the US. Some may say that international opinion is not important, but in this day and age, no one nation can stand alone.</p>
<p>In addition to Nahrafsa's comments about the taxes, one should realize that the money saved by teh rich from teh tax cuts is not going to anyone elses pockets. One of the most basic economic lessons is that average propensity to consume goes up as income increases. In simple terms, the rich get richer, but don't spend their additional wealth. So the tax cuts were ntohing more than a measure of making the rich richer and the poor, well, still poor.</p>
<p>"Also I find it interesting how these people call themselves fiscal conservatives yet run up the biggest deficits cutting taxes for the aristocracy and granting juicy pork laden contracts to their campaign supporters."</p>
<p>Yup, thats the way it works. If.when in 4 years, a democratic senate/president decide to spend on something worthwhile like welfare, then these same "neo conservatives" who racked up the biggest deficit ever will complain about government spending.</p>
<p>This new branch of conservatism that dominates american politics is a hybrid, and is one of the most hypotcritical parties ever. Take for example the issue of "life." They are against abortion and stem cell research ( partly due to their lips being on the ass of the religious right) and value a so called culture of life, but support the death penalty and war in Iraq, which has led to a huge nubmer of innocent iraqis dead.</p>
<p>actually, the state that receives the most per capita federal spending is Alaska, a solidly republican state with 2 republican senators..... so Byrd isnt the King of Pork</p>
<p>btw, did u notice the tongue thrashing that byrd gave to frist the other day</p>
<p>he took the floor with a bible in one hand and the constitution in the other</p>
<p>then he proceeded to intellectually trounce frist " no, the [up or down] language isn't in the constitution senator byrd"</p>
<p>he did this until frist ran away!</p>
<p>
[Quote]
20 years down the line, oil resources are on the brink of being tapped out.. America with its dependence on oil will have to look to the middle east again.. which it has completely alienated with its hawkish policy at this point... What happens when OPEC refuses to sell to the us? 20 years down the line there are going to be enough people ready to buy that oil, without OPEC needing the US to..
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>hah u gullible fool... oil resources running out in 20 years?!!?! u seem to believe everything people tell you, in this case being oil companies that want to create an artificial scarcity
OPEC stop selling to america???????????????????????????????????????
why on earth would they want to lose their biggest client?who can pay as much as america even if the scenario u mentioned arises... wow ur naivity amazes me..clearly u have been on a staple diet of michael moore.</p>
<p>alientating the middle east???! iraq and afghanisthan r already in 'friendly' hands, in 20 years who knows??? like i said its all about the oil... and america is doing what it has to do to secure it.</p>
<p>i dont want the worlds oil reserves to be in the hands of some religious fanatics</p>
<p>
[Quote]
When a country is in a trillion dollar debt , and when it is as hated areound the world, when the country is run by corporations only interested in furthering their avarice desires, and when another country like China is going to overtake the U.S. in terms of economic potential, I'd say the United States is on a downswing.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>debt is NOT the measure of a countries economic situation
sure the country is wrong by big companies, so? capitalism has been proven to be the only model for economic success. (as the commie's in USSR found out the hard way)
China- sure their an emerging economy- but their a manufacturing economy. sure, their tons of factories in China, but its america company's that own the factories. china and india are just new markets for BIG BAD RICH AMERICAN COMPANIES.</p>
<p>Wal Mart imported worth 8 billion- doesnt that tell you enough? the american consumer has enouh power to consume so much. and oh, Wal Mart openning in China and India in the next year, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (i sure as hell wouldn't want to be a shopowner in india next year)</p>
<p>on another tangent- i strongly believe china's bubble will burst very shortly.... most economists agree that china's growth numbers have been manipulated and most of the chinese population lives in rural china- which is much,much different from beijing, shanghai... and the rural people have been largely ignored....</p>
<p>ah, but Byrd is the King of Pork...look over his entire tenure...that old guy has gotten more $$ spent on WV than the state could raise in a decade...
talkin about Alaska...this is totally off topic but i thought it was kinda funny...during the "environmental revolution" in the 1970s when Congress enacted the clean air and water legislation...they set such high limits of pollution depletion that Alaska (having the cleanest water in the nation) had to ask fishing plants to dump their waste in to surrounding waters so they'd have something to clean! lol..i just thought that was amusing :p</p>
<p>and Byrd knows how to work that filibuster lol....that's actually kinda funny..i don't particularly like Robert Byrd....i don't particularly like Bill Frist either...especially after that whole eliminating the filibuster thing...so absurd....i think it's funny watching 2 ppl i don't particularly like giving eachother hell :)</p>
<p>and right tennistennis....that's the main reason SSFiscal Policy doesn't work...those who benefit don't put their money in to stocks...they shove them in to savings accounts and retirement funds...but nowadays, DSFiscal policy has met a bulky threat...drug use in rural areas....rural areas have the highest ratio of individuals on social welfare programs...and drug use among lower income individuals has increased twofold in the last few decades...now they're spending more money by illegally buying prescription medication containing OxyC, HydroC, Fentanyl...along with Xanax, Valum Calonapin, etc. etc. so on and so forth.......as well as pot, coc, heroine......so they're putting less money in to the economy and more in to the pockets of drug dealers....but overall....DSFiscal policy works most of the time, unless it's overestimated...I think the key to solving this potential economic crisis is through fiscal policy...monetary policy can have a slight effect, but all this unneeded gov't spending/tax breaks are just killing us...not to mention, Bush is asking for 32Bil a year over the CBO's recommended limits on defense spending....the guy seriously doens't know when to stop...he needs to find the fiscal conservative within himself and let go of the little brat that's used to having mommy and daddy buying him anything he wants.</p>
<p>hawkofwar</p>
<p>people like you are the reason we have a government run by religious fanatics. thats all.</p>
<p>your ignorance is appalling. I'm sure your attitudes about capitalism being a panacea for everything when during the next recession, you'll(at this point I'm referring to a general american, not u personally) be laid off and since you, like the average american have a pittance of savings will have nothing to live off of.</p>
<p>Lets see where your unrestrained classical economic theories will take you then?</p>
<p>ignore hawkofwar....he doesn't know the least about economics nor globalization and the long-lasting effects...and obviously he doesn't know about Chinese manufacturers!....tsk tsk...doesn't matter if Americans own the companies...Americans don't work in the factories...hence....unemployment...hence...less money to buy the goods...hence....less demand...hence....lower profit in America :)...that is the case for a number of corporations BUT...the Chinese own a majority of the plants in China :)...dang who'da thought?....sooo...you're not buying and American product...you're buying a Chinese product...</p>
<p>and you're right sempitern...the average american is too oblivious to what goes on in their own country/around the world to know whether the approach that U.S. is taking is right or wrong...i just wish every American could work hard and go to even the most lowly college have atleast a slight bit of credible information to base their views on....rather than go about everything on a whim and base everything on the assumptions made up in their head.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
doesn't matter if Americans own the companies...Americans don't work in the factories...hence....unemployment...hence...less money to buy the goods...hence....less demand...hence....lower profit in America
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>clearly YOUR ignorance is galling.
cheaper labour, higher profits. the money is pumped back into the american economy. sure we are losing manufacturing jobs, but we are creating managemnt,sales, admin jobs. </p>
<p>and when we give give access to china/india to our markets, we have access to theirs. thats 2 billion new customers for Wal Mart right there.</p>
<p>im not implying that the american economy is at its healthiest, what i am trying to put across is that this has happened before (i remember my friends paranoid about Japan in the '70's)</p>
<p>have faith in this system and our leader. america always bounces back.</p>
<p>and for the record, i am not a religious person at all.</p>
<p>I think the Europeans have a better system. They work shorter hours, have more vacation time, spend more time with the family, live longer, have better food, lower crime, better high school education, world-class medical care for every citizen, a high standard of living (all 25 EU economies are among the top 40 countries in the world in terms of quality of life...5 of the top 10 are also members of the EU), good productivity etc... If to you, Economics means more profits and more revenues, then yes, the US has the best system. But to me, there is much more the economics.</p>
<p>my bad...didn't mean profit...i meant income....not corporate income...economic..fewer laborers, fewer payroll taxes, lower yields from income taxes, higher unemployment, lower demand among American citizens = slower economy...a corporation's profits only affect the economy to a certain extent...unemployment and demand are the number one determinants of whether an economy is "good" or "bad"...you can have a highly profitable corporation, but your economy can be receding...i.e. pre-1920s monopolies</p>
<p>
[Quote]
OPEC stop selling to america???????????????????????????????????????
why on earth would they want to lose their biggest client?
[Quote]
</p>
<p>There's more to the world then economics hawk... but you clearly dont see beyond that..</p>
<p>With bush going into two different countries in a span of less then four years (and your wanting him to go into even more), clearly the middle east isn't going to like america much..</p>
<p>It doesnt help when you have Tomahawks crashing into your house and killing half your family..</p>
<p>If bush continues to build up this hatred in the middle east its only natural for them to want to retalite - and thats where you get your 9/11's from..</p>
<p>Why would they continue selling to a country they hate, when the rest of the world is clearly willing to buy from them? and spare me your theoretical economic bull**** and look at it from a practical point of view..</p>
<p>
[Quote]
i dont want the worlds oil reserves to be in the hands of some religious fanatics
[Quote]
</p>
<p>The only reason why the middle east has been categorised as being religiously fanatical is becasue of terrorist attacks - which when you go to the root of have been self inflicted.. (read above)</p>
<p>How about something you learnt as a kid - you be nice to someone and they're nice to you. Dont enter their lands and blow up their families, they dont crash planes into your buildings. Its people like you who suggest invading to get the oil resources and keep them in "friendly hands" that are the cause of whats happening today.. either way you look at it.. americans are dying and muslims are dying.. there is no winner..</p>
<p>WaterC, I agree with what you say. Furthermore, the Global demand for OPEC oil far exceeds the supply and is likely to continue to increase with the rapidely improving economies and industries of Eastern Europe, Latin America and East and South Asia. If the Middle East wished to cut the US off sometime in the future, it most certainly can. It won't anytime soon, but in 5 or 6 years, you never know.</p>