Calling all experienced music parents...HELP

Quick note: Guinevan is not a student and I did not intend to imply he was: just threw his name in at the last minute.

Prejudice is defined as being based on lack of intimate knowledge of its object. The way through prejudice is exposure, as Stringpop suggests. Stringpop articulates the variety and depth of the field of new music which cannot be dismissed as some monolithic genre but instead represents thousands of composers writing in this and recent decades, each with an individual “voice”, regardless of context or influences.

Sidenote: if you’re a teen (or parent of) musician or composer interested in new music and you’re in the metro nyc area, the ensemble I was referring to is called Face the Music, and it’s helmed by the other co-founder, who I should have mentioned above, the tireless and brilliant Jenny Undercofler. Even if you’re not interested in playing, but curious about hearing/seeing some new music, they play around town frequently.

@Compmom: I’ve got to be the least informed poster on this thread. I have no music training but grew up listening to classical music as a constant backdrop because my dad was a big fan. 20-21st century composers I like: Arvo Part, Philip Glass, Stephen Puts, Jennifer Higdon. I like the occasional strangeness of Bartok, Britten, Walton, Hindemith and Stravinsky but have a hard time listening to some specific works, i.e., Rite of Spring (too much banging for me).

The composer who angered my parents to distraction was Kalevi Aho!

First off, I’m not a composition major YET, my screen name is compmajor because that’s the goal. Sorry about any confusion.

I really like the idea of a potential audience listening to some “new music” before hand to prepare them so they can have a more enjoyable experience. I think that for most people gradual steps towards “new music” is the best way to gain exposure. I remember when I first started taking composition lessons, my teacher gave me the score to The Rite of Spring and Beethoven’s 3rd Symphony, and had me listen to both. Each lessons after ward, he would give me two scores and have me listen to them. One would be something relatively easy to approach, and the other would be something he thought would make me go completely bonkers. Each lessons they would both get increasingly challenging until we were both satisfied with my tolerance; at which point he began to give me one “classical” piece and one “new” piece each lesson. I think this method, although time consuming, is one of the best methods of exposure. Also, I found that most of my friends that listened to hard rock or metal and\or underground or experimental hip hop were MUCH more open to the “new music” I shared with them.

Primitive music, if Leonard Bernstein and others are to be believed, came out of the tones mothers used to soothe their kids (read his lectures on "The unanswered question), and it is likely that while not necessarily familiar to us, would more than likely be tonal and soothing, not atonal and generating negative images, so while probably out of key, I doubt it would sound like a ‘modern’ composition. People like Daniel Lativin have done a lot of work on music and how it affects people, and one of the reasons that ‘modern’ composition, with its emphasis on atonality, on irregular rythms and such is that it generates very different reactions in the brain, the reaction is often physical in nature. Horror movies play on our emotions, as does much of music, and things like prize fighting or bull fighting or boxing hits certain emotions, but it is a very different response from what I have read.

And yes, people do concentrate on 12 tone and minimalism as the representation of ‘modern classical music’ because that quite frankly is what you see orchestras commissioning for the most part, the jazz inflected, rock inflected, folk inflected, other forms don’t generally get played all that often, at least not yet (and it is a shame, because there is a lot of wonderful music like that out there), and that is where people get exposed. In the other thread, when we mentioned the NYYS and its commissioned pieces, I have gone to many of their concerts over the years, both before and during my son’s tenure there, and most of them were either atonal/12 tone based pieces or minimalism (not surprising, the group at NYYS that chose pieces were mostly in that genre, Corigliano was a member of that committee for a long time), and the same with concerts where I have gone. The NY Phil when it decided to have a composer in residence, didn’t choose someone writing jazz inflected pieces, or rock inflected pieces, or tonal, they chose Magnus Lindberg, who might not be totally ‘out there’ or ‘avant garde’, but he still is very much in that atonal world. When I went with my son to see the LA phil a couple of years ago, they had a new music program, and other than a wonderful piece by John Adams, it was all very, very atonal/12 tone.

Does this mean none of this is music? No, but I think it represents the fact that until very recently, that is what most ‘modern music’ has been. Composers like Lowell Lieberman, who writes absolutely gorgeous tonal pieces, are simply not heard as much. I know a number of people who are roughly my peers in age, who studies composition, and they said that at most of the music schools, if you weren’t doing the 12 tone or minimalism, you are derided and called ‘derivative’ and worse, and I think that has formed people’s impression of new music. I think that a lot of music directors were steeped in that orthodoxy and it shows what they perform and commission as well.

Is all of this music? Yes, much the same way as much as I might not like visual art, if it represents the artists vision, then it is art. And yes, familiarity does change people’s views of things, but there is a caveat to that. With much of modern music, which went so far beyond the bounds of traditional tonal music, it is very possible that, like some forms of visual art, it will never catch on. In his day Picasso was a rebel, but it did catch on, as did impressionist paintings, but as weird as some of that is (in comparison to let’s say a landscape done in the 18th century), it was still enough to give people some root of understanding, basis. When people talk about the Rite of Spring and the riots (which btw were likely staged by Diaghliev, as well as the heckling from the audience), what they forget is within 10 years of its premiere, it was in the standard reperatory, and with Beethoven, his works, especially the later ones, were considered works of genius within 20 years of his death, whereas at least with the atonal/12 tone music, it has been around over 100 years and still has problems with audience, and I think it is because it has run so far from people’s common experience it won’t gain a lot of devotees…Minimalism has achieved IMO a lot more in the way of popularity, and to be honest I think it is because people like John Adams and Phillip glass have moved away from orthodoxy (I saw a very humorous interview with John Adams, when he described himself as a young composer and the foibles of being a young artist).

And basically all an artist can do is follow their muse and do what they feel they need to. On the other hand, I find it objectionable when I hear audiences dismissed, how ‘they don’t want to do the work’, 'if they understood the piece they would see how great it is" and the like, it basically trivializes anyone who doesn’t like or understand a particular piece, which is arrogance to the nth degree, because in effect it is saying my art should be your art. Quite frankly, a lot of high art all the through the ages has not achieved a wide audience, and that is understandable. Someone asked if modern music in its myriad forms are music, and the answer is yes, but but on the other hand, the fact that it is music doesn’t mean that people hearing it and not appreciating it are inauthentic or philistines and the like, and the fact that a lot of modern music does not achieve wide audience approval doesn’t mean all those people don’t ‘get it’, it means they don’t like the pieces enough to try and understand them. A lot of modern music IMO is Ars Gratia Artis, music designed to appeal to those ‘in the know’ about music theory and music structure, and that is fine, but it also means it is going to limit its audience to those who care to try and figure out what the particular tone row is and what it means. Some of the genius of people like Mozart and Beethoven and even Bartok (who can be difficult as heck) and Stravinsky and Prokofiev and so forth, is that they managed to stretch people without breaking the relationship with the audience, with more than a bit of modern music it has stretched things with the audience to where it breaks for many and I think that describes why a lot of the music doesn’t get big audiences or become ‘audience favorites’.

A lot of this discussion has been about new music–it’s not clear to me if that’s what this performance really is, or if it’s more in the free jazz category. Maybe it doesn’t matter all that much.

Here’s one tip: if you listen to Pandora, try to spend some time listening to the “Indie Classical” category. You will hear a lot of the composers mentioned above, and most of the pieces are (relatively) accessible.

Good point Hunt: once the original poster’s son’s performance was clarified, the thread had gone off on a bit of a tangent. That said, I will just say one more thing: much of what is going on in new music is not orchestral and of course much of it is heard by all of 50 people :slight_smile: That is certainly true in art galleries and dance studios as well. We aren’t always talking about big business music, so audience-pleasing is often a matter of debate!

@hunt-
I think that it is interesting it is labelled “indie classical”, which implies that it is music you don’t hear in mainstream classical places…and that may be part of the problem, maybe part of the problem is that the broad breadth of modern classical music isn’t making it into the concert halls and such, maybe with ‘new music’ they are just as ossified with the traditional pieces, in what they perform, that if it isn’t 12 tone/serialist or minimalism, don’t bother…

I haven’t done a survey or anything, but I wonder if things are maybe changing a bit at the orchestral level, even if it’s not seeped into public consciousness quite yet. Last year, I attended a nyphil concert that featured a piece by osvaldo golijov (decidedly tonal). I also read that Judd Greenstein composed a piece for Minnesota (before all the bad stuff happened). Aaron Jay kernis, who’s never been part of academe and who can compose a melody like no one’a business and still sound contemporary, was at Minnesota too (and he resigned during all the bad stuff). Nico muhly has also done some full orchestra stuff, and the opera at the Met. At last years’s NY Phil biennial, I attended a concert at Avery Fisher Hall that was packed to the gills for a concert filled with a variety of new music, none atonal. So, idk. That’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure there are more. Festivals like ecstatic music are pretty diverse in their programming too. Who knows? I sure don’t. I do hope that today’s many varied composers continue to create – I know they will-- that they find support in concert halls and smaller venues and that they find appreciative audiences who will eventually stop painting then with the same 12 tone brush

I never liked the indie classical or alt classical labels myself, or the downtown/uptown thing either. It creates a false division, as if this particular music isn’t part of the tradition, or opposed to it in some way, which isn’t really true. It sounds cool, though.

It’s funny, whenever you dig into a thing that people care about, the arguments about what is or isn’t part of the thing, the true thing, run fast and furious. Maybe that’s what’s happening. It’s sort of like country music. I often read here and elsewhere comments like “I love all kinds of music – except country.” But what do people mean when they say country? Dig beyond Blake Shelton and Carrie underwood et al., and you find a whole other world of extremely diverse sub genres – many of which are worthy of attention – and fierce debate about what constitutes true country music…and of course that’s where the “alt” in alt classical comes from. Anyway, rambling now. Thanks all for the thoughtful discussion. It’s fun.

I think there’s a lot of groovy new music that is quite listenable. I like a lot of the Bang on a Can stuff, for example.

Now, free jazz is a different story, at least for me. Perhaps, again, the key would be listening to more of it. I do like Sun Ra, but that’s old stuff.

So now can someone guide me to some free jazz?! My curiosity is piqued…

Here is some old school free jazz. Running off to find some “modern” free jazz . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YedVpRzF900

You could think of this as the Beethoven of free jazz - still relatively accessible to the classical ear :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fXasQidkN0

OK - here is some from last year . . . enjoy! :stuck_out_tongue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCijxbRNbPE

Thanks so much!

My first reaction after listening is that it must be an amazing experience for the musicians themselves, who are truly inside the music. If, as an audience member, you can get inside, it would be amazing as well. The comments on the “Beethoven of free jazz” were uniformly negative and referred often to dead chickens (!). The comments on the Burrell were very positive, which was interesting,

I have to say I loved the Burrell…thanks again!

@Mezzo’sMama‌ - I’m longing to hear my daughter sing Phaedra…someday, perhaps.