Can valedictorians with great scores end up at schools low on their preference list?

Applying to College
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some won't (e.g., Ivies)

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<p>Why wouldn't Ivies understand my situation? I always thought it were the Ivies that emphasized a more holistic approach to admission.</p>

<p>This brings in another question. How about students with that have a relatively decent GPA (e.g. 3.80 UW with hardest courseload), but are not valedictorians? How do they fair in admissions to top schools?</p>

<p>I'm asking because I have a 3.80 GPA and the only thing going good for me is my a (hopefully) stellar test scores and above average ECs. I was thinking on applying for HYPSM, but I'm not so sure anymore.</p>

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<p>wow, some of you mentioned how the music programs at your school give no credit and that's detrimental to rank. at my school, it's the opposite...music classes are weighted, and since they are an easy 100, the music kids' ranks soar. so basically, if you have a good voice and make it into the pop group or select choruses, then your rank will be even higher. this is bad for people like me since i have no musical talent! and yeah, often the valedictorians at my school don't go to great schools because often they don't have good grades in core subjects.</p>

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<p>The top schools would rather take a student who is committed to one thing, and has demonstrated superb performance in it, whether it be an Intel or Siemens-Westinghouse project, musicianship, a sport, mathematics, or creative writing, than ten valedictorians.</p>

<p>Their professors are clamoring for young people to mentor. Large lecture classes are their filters. They want students who will come to office hours and show sincere interest in the subjects they are studying. Many—all the best ones—are having a ball teaching small-class freshman seminars. </p>

<p>The truth is, the top schools are not actually interested in 10-AP course portfolios, but they are forced to use these as indirect proxies for what they really want, which is intellectual fervor. I recently advised the mother of an exceptionally math-and-science-gifted student to not worry about an AP-max transcript, but to get the student to talk his teacher into collaborating on an Intel / Siemens-Westinghouse project. Even without going too far in the competition, the only student in a school to have every done a project—a student who started a new enterprise-- will stand out head and shoulders among students who have larger AP portfolios, in the eyes of admissions committee members.</p>

<p>For students who have completed AP courses in 10th-11th grade, and one of them has spurred their particular interest, try enrolling them in a beyond-AP summer course at a respected university. I sent one of my kids to the University of Chicago, and he loved it. His two instructors were more than happy to write recommendation letters. Believe me, letters from university instructors, including those at first-tier public research universities, carry a lot more weight than letters from high school GCs who went to X State U teachers colleges, which is to say people who attended post-secondary institutions that required little more than a high school diploma, no essays, and no interviews, who don't have any experience, in their own educations, with highly-competitive admissions procedures. They never had to compete themselves. </p>

<p>The summer programs are a talent search. The front door is open. You audition in the lobby. If you do well, you get a nod, "This is a teenager who's like us," and you get pointed to the elevator.</p>

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<p>Last year, our valedictorian went to University of Pittsburg. Our Saluditorian went to Yale. We have about 320 kids in each grade and my school is fairly competitive.</p>

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<p>I have a friend whose private-school educated son got intensive math instruction at home. He's the only person in our Midwestern state to get invited to the USA Math Olympiad summer camp. He wants to go to MIT. He's going to get in. It's not a mysterious, unpredictable crap shoot, if you know what "the rules" are. </p>

<p>There are schools in which a GC can call the admissions director at Princeton and say, "This kid doesn't look great on paper, but he's a terrific match for you," and presto! the kid gets in. The GC is a great talent scout. She's never been wrong. Her judgment is trusted by Princeton.</p>

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<p>I'm the salutatorian at my high school. I tried to take as many AP classes as possible, as the regular classes were boring intellectually and the honors wasn't that much better. I took AP classes, as a lot of the work is individual and you really get to challenge yourself as much as you want to. Plus, the teachers really encourage it so I thrived in the AP classes. I took the most AP classes possible, as we don't offer too many and many of them conflict with one another in the same period. In addition, there are many which I cannot take because they're language AP courses and I'm not qualified for any of that. </p>

<p>My counselor thought that I was the valedictorian until the UCs sent her a letter stating that I wasn't. According to her, they had calculated the GPAs based on transcripts to notify people if they were ELC or QOT. My counselor couldn't figure it out and they had a meeting with the other counselors and the principal to determine how this happened and they concluded that it was because the valedictorian took summer classes at the local community college, which the UCs give an extra point to. Essentially, he took easy classes at the community college like Introduction to Psychology and he got the higher GPA. Our SAT scores aren't too high, as we're from an inner-city school that hasn't send many kids to college historically; our average SAT scores aren't too high either but ours are above it (which really isn't saying much). </p>

<p>He's applying only to in-state public universities like the UCs and didn't apply to private schools because he didn't think he could get in. I'm applying to all privates except three UCs. Thus, I think that he understood that valedictorians with great GPAs aren't necessarily shoo-ins to top tier colleges. </p>

<p>At first I was kind of disappointed that I wouldn't be the valedictorian given that I didn't take classes over the summer. Instead, I did some extracurricular work like doing a research project with graduate students at the local state university and internships at law firms. Although, I kind of assume that the schools won't necessarily look down upon me for my class rank. I mean, it's only one of many factors that they consider, right?</p>

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At first I was kind of disappointed that I wouldn't be the valedictorian given that I didn't take classes over the summer. Instead, I did some extracurricular work like doing a research project with graduate students at the local state university and internships at law firms. Although, I kind of assume that the schools won't necessarily look down upon me for my class rank. I mean, it's only one of many factors that they consider, right?

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<p>Your thinking is correct... those other things you mentioned will matter much more than being valedictorian or not. It's just such a relative assessment that doesn't carry much weight when comparing schools. The valedictorian at one school may just be 'average' at the next school...</p>

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<p>I'm pretty sure I'm going to wind up in the top 4 of my class, maybe co-val, hopefully. For me, I didn't even apply to Ivies because they're just not good matches for me at all, and instead I really thought about what I wanted in a college and decided to go to Ithaca College.</p>

<p>However, two the of three that are ahead of me in rank have got their dreamy little eyes focused on the Ivies, and have obsessively been manicuring their portfolios since freshman year. Good luck to them, because my school pretty much never sends anyone to the Ivies. I think we get the occassional Cornell student, but that's a rarity.</p>

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<p>I guess this is in response to homeschooldad. I'm valedictorian based on unweighted (like 10 other people too) and weighted (only me), a siemens semifinalist, won the state championship as a team in tennis, multiple AIME qualifier, USACO silver etc. I still dont think I'll get in anywhere top tier just because there is so many people who are good. I feel to get in, unless you are just super amazing (like USA math camp) then you need some luck.</p>

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<p>My cousin was the valedictorian for our school last year, and he didn't make it into Princeton.</p>

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<p>yeah playing the "weighting game" could make your rankings sour...as did my school's valedictorian 2 years back. However, colleges like Harvard generally see through this so most of the ppl like this, including the aforementioned val, do not get in. (However she did get into other good schools, and later attended Duke.) This is from a school that sometimes sends up to 20% of its class to ivies, plus more to MIT, stanford, and caltech.</p>

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I have a friend whose private-school educated son got intensive math instruction at home. He's the only person in our Midwestern state to get invited to the USA Math Olympiad summer camp.

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holy <strong><em>!! i didn't know MOPpers could be tutored...intensive math instruction...</em></strong> i wish my parents were smart and i could've been tutored in math when i was 5...</p>

<p>but being the only MOPper from a state in a long time (or forever? =o) is a good hook.</p>

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<p>The valedictorian and saludatorian at my school tend to go wherever they want every year. However, I went to a competitive high school with lots of APs, summer community college classes, and we only have one valedictorian a year. And we have somewhere between 700-900 people per class (my class was about 980).</p>

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<p>bballdude: wow are u serious?</p>

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<p>Umm...i was deferred from MIT... Ive been like that ever since (although i did forget to update them on Siemens, but I have corrected that). By top tier btw, I just meant like HPM.</p>

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<p>yeah but ull be like the first person they'll accept once RD decision come around ^^</p>

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<p>We had 11 vals. I think 5 or 6 ended up at Berkeley, 1 at stanford, 1 at harvard, 1 at santa clara, 1 at UC Irvine, and one on a full scholarship at DeVry. So...it was pretty varied for our class.</p>

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<p>Haha thanks for the optimism. I find keeping a low level of expectation is healthy. Maybe not now, but it will be.</p>

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<p>my expectations for myself are like almost nonexistant. so that's good =) cuz i wouldn't be so sad when i get rejected from everywhere ^_^</p>

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<p>all schools including the ivies are aware of the grading policies and practices of high schools. so FRIEDRICE even an ivy will understand your situation. they will do their "own math" and evaluate your course selection. It surprises me that most students are not aware of the fact that all colleges ask the high schools to send a fact sheet with each applicant. this fact sheet includes how courses are weighted or not how rigorous your course selection is in comparison to your classmates etc.</p>

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<p>Again, I have to agree with what HomeschoolDad writes. The story about GC from some school calling admission people at P. looks very believable .I really think the famous schools on the East coast operate like that. Notice, that not all of their kids go to the Ivies, they stress "match" above all. In somes schools it does not matter if you are a Val or slightly below.
HomeschoolDad, what do you mean when you write

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The summer programs are a talent search. The front door is open. You audition in the lobby. If you do well, you get a nod, "This is a teenager who's like us," and you get pointed to the elevator.

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