<p>Be aware that the candidates are receiving evaluations from the mids they drag with. With that in mind, be yourself, and just have fun while learning as much as you can. Don't act like some big shot with 28 varsity letters, or 18 AP classes, because it won't really help your standing with the mid who you're dragging with. Just be humble, and ready to do whatever, whenever and HAVE FUN!</p>
<p>Tique...if you're invited for specific dates, there will be space for you. They don't "fill up." Worst case for you and for USNA is they'll schedule you for a different CVW.</p>
<p>
[quote]
OK 2010, CVW's must translate to the Academy's interest in a person. Is that interest strong? How many in total get an invite to CVW???
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry- was away for "that's another NAVY WIN!!!"</p>
<p>Back to your question-
CVW's do- and don't- translate into the Academy's interest in a person-</p>
<p>First and foremost, they are offered to competitive candidates- thus, if you are a marginal candidate, chances are you may not get an invite. Does that make or break your chances of an appointment? No- they are separate and distinct processes, although if you do go, you will be "rated" by the Mid "Dragging" you.</p>
<p>They are also offered to recruits or "persons of interest"... that includes academic wiz's that have lots of other "top choice" schools competing for them.</p>
<p>They are also offered to areas of the country that are underrepresented at the USNA- thus, might be easier to get an invite from the Mid-west as opposed to the east coast, and especially if you are within a drivable radius of Annapolis.</p>
<p>They are also offered to the target students that the academy is interested in pursuing- so right now, that includes minorities- specifically African-Americans and Hispanics- and from target areas around the country- again, toward the aim of increasing the number of minority officers in the fleet to be more in line with the make up of the enlisted- so, if you are such a candidate you are more likely to get an invite....</p>
<p>All from the same MOC? Not all will be invited- chances are better if there is no-one currently at the academy from that MOC's catchment area....</p>
<p>
[quote]
How does a person go from a prospect to an appointment?
[/quote]
How does one go from being a prospect to an appointee?
First of all, one must submit a preliminary application.
From there, if you meet the MINIMUM standards, you get an official candidate number, which allows you to complete for an appointment....
you must meet all requirements- Academic qualification (GPA, class rank, SATs), Medical qualification (DoDMERB clearance) and physical requirements (CFA score). Add to that a good demonstration of leadership, etc.... all the other attributes of the "whole person score"....
and then you have to compete for a nomination from a MOC/VP/Pres....and gain one.
That will narrow the field down to about 1800 or so.... from which appointments will be offered to about 1400 give or take- to yield a class size about 1200- give or take-</p>
<p>so what is the "missing ingredient" in all of this?
Wish I could tell you-
Motivation for one.
BGO interview.
Teacher recommendations.</p>
<p>All of it counts for gaining that appointment.
But trust me when I tell you that ALL OF THAT is the "easy part."
The hard part is staying in once you are there-
Grades.
Attitude.
Perseverance.
Commitment.</p>
<p>CVW- the bottom line- nice if you get offered one, but it is for informational purposes for you- your appointment will not depend on it, unless you go and blow it with some crazy attitude that should have been left at the door. Sadly, it happens. It continues to amaze me how many of you are out there doing this because this is what your PARENTS want for you- NOT WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOURSELF- and it HAS TO BE THAT!!!! This has to be what you want----- to do otherwise is to flirt with disaster- so do a gut check and make sure this is your desire---- and if not, if your parents are pushing too hard- then quietly let your BGO know- they can be very helpful in getting you off that hook-
the biggest mistake, IMO, would be to go when your heart is not in this- for it is very clear it needs to be if you are to be successful when the hard part comes- and the hard part is not the "getting in."</p>
<p>So back to the CVW.
I know lots of Mids that never attended one- yet got an appointment.
Know lots of Mids that were never selected for NASS either, yet got an appointment.
These are informational sessions for you- and there are other ways to seek out the opportunities if you are resourceful enough.
Don't get an invite for NASS? No problem! Attend a summer sports camp at USNA!
Don't get an invite for CVW? Then arrange to visit on your own if it is that critical to your decision!</p>
<p>Far better to show your BGO that you let NOTHING get in your way of creating the opportunities ON YOUR OWN to get the info you need!!!! </p>
<p>I don't know how else to say it-
it truly is "secondary, optional, and conditional"..... and in the long run will not matter a whole hill of beans!!!! What will matter is that you want this, that you are motivated to get the info you need, and that you persist until you get enough of it- from whatever source- to be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not USNA is a "good fit" for YOU! The rest....ALL THE REST....asides from your grades, SATs, etc....is not in your control! Trying to control it, or game it, or "figure it all out" will just land you in the exact spot you are in now..... so utilize that time to a better end and get studying, take the SATs over again if they are not high enough, get running if you are otherwise in good shape academically... and make darn sure you have a Plan B and C and even D in place!!!! One thing is for certain at USNA- and that is nothing is certain! Show up on I-Day the top recruit, candidate, SAT scorer, whatever- but injured and unable to participate in plebe summer- and you are going home!</p>
<p>Good information but one statement that is the proverbial "urban myth",i.e. commonly believed but not necessarily accurate. Which one?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The hard part is staying in once you are there-
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not really. While it is no walk in the park to go from I Day to Graduation Day, the statistical odds of graduating are drastically, monumentally greater/better than those of being appointed and inducted. On the latter, 1200 of 12,000 give or take are inducted annually ... about 10% or 1 of 10 making this level. </p>
<p>However, once inducted the odds shift dramatically in favor of Midshipmen becoming commissioned officers as nearly 85% graduate ...and they virtually all do so in the prescribed 4 years. So you see, one's likelihood of graduating once they are inducted is exceptionally high. Conversely a candidate's likelihood of being inducted is slim. </p>
<p>The admission process is essentially a sorting out process. And the induction-to-graduation process for the most part is a retention process driven by the USNA's great motivation to RETAIN candidates, at great cost. Literally. </p>
<p>So odds of 85% trump 10% any day. And consider that students matriculating to the Naval Academy are a virtual slam dunk ...IF THEY WANT TO BE ...to graduate. And much better odds vs. the local land-grant U., especially if you want to do it in 4 years, even getting a B.S. degree in engineering.</p>
<p>btw, while for some these may be sorta "fighing words" which they're not intended to be, this is precisely as it should be when the very challenging admissions process does precisely what it should ...identify, appoint and induct the very best qualified and motivated candidates. I'd say that while the edges can always be tweaked, one might conclude ..." It works!" At least if graduating those inducted is one of the key measures of success. But to throw a curve on this picture, it will become increasingly interesting to watch retention/graduation figures and costs/Mid as the mix is increasingly pushed toward the difficult lands of diversity. Then the notion of getting from I Day to Grad Day being a "hard part" might become more of a reality. Without a doubt, it will become much more expensive, as every institution in hot pursuit of diversification learns.</p>
<p>^^^ once again, not a myth at all.</p>
<p>I am referring to the 100% of mids that, at some time during their stay at the USNA, will hit the wall and question their desire to remain. That is the wall that gets hit, there is no avoiding it, and while the majority move past it, some will not. And the later it comes, the harder they hit.</p>
<p>And for those that hit it especially hard, the decision to move on- in either direction- takes a whole not more grit then getting in ever did. </p>
<p>That the majority do just that is testiment to the character of the individual sought in the first place. But the message to be taken home is that the work does not "finish" when the appointment arrives at the door- it is barely scratching the surface of what lies ahead, and a wise candidate (and parent) will know that- and be prepared for that- ahead of time.</p>
<p>No myth about it- the road from I-Day to Commissioning Day is a rocky one for the vast majority- if not academically, then athletically. If not athletically, then mentally. There are pitfalls and landmines all over the place, and a wise Mid will learn quickly where they are and how to avoid them. And while graduation rates appear favorable, they don't tell the story of the struggle it took to get there- and THAT is the hard part.</p>
<p>I will repeat for those wise enough to take the council: The hard part is not the getting in, it is the staying in.
Grades.
Attitude.
Perseverance.
Commitment.</p>
<p>Never lose sight of that.</p>
<p>Challenging indeed! As noted, it's not simple graduating, but in nearly every case, doable and done. We agree on the notion that it's not a holiday cruise once one is admitted. Mids work hard, for sure. And indeed all have to decide along the way if they'll pursue that commission, culminating at the 2 for 7 signing at the beginning of the junior year. Virtually all who remain, which is nearly all who were there on I Day, do sign, stay and graduate. In fact this appears to be a time of great elation and joy, not fear, trepidation and wondering beyond a certain few. For virtually all, it's just the next step toward fulfilling a powerful dream.</p>
<p>Here, you've raised another of those mythological misconceptions too, I believe. You note ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
...100% of mids that, at some time during their stay at the USNA, will hit the wall and question their desire to remain. That is the wall that gets hit, there is no avoiding it, and while the majority move past it, some will not. And the later it comes, the harder they hit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Isn't that true for virtually all students, wherever they land? In fact, make that young people. Maybe just people. But to imply that each and every Mid has this earth-shattering, soul-searching questioning about their choice and opportunity to be at the USNA, is over-dramatic and I beg to say, fantasizing. Again, it's tuff and very different than studying English lit at Vassar ... or engineering at MSU ...or take your pick. But I don't believe it's fair or accurate to describe the time as such. And I'd bet my little ranch that a great many Mids would not portray this as monumentally, disproportionately complex and difficult. </p>
<p>What's the real point here? USNA is a challenging, elite, unique educational experience. Graduating requires overcoming lots of hurdles in multiple dimensions. Virtually all who are chosen and consequently choose to attend, finish. Statistically, it's monumentally tougher getting in than graduating. And tough as it may be, if it is even close to being the toughest thing Mids ever do, then they've failed miserably.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In fact this appears to be a time of great elation and joy, not fear, trepidation and wondering beyond a certain few. For virtually all, it's just the next step toward fulfilling a powerful dream
[/quote]
</p>
<p>yes it is, and no- not everyone will continue on. Most will-</p>
<p>
[quote]
Isn't that true for virtually all students, wherever they land?
[/quote]
perhaps- I do not have the breath of experience to address all students- except to say that it is an observation I have witnessed at USNA and USMA over the course of many classes and many years, one not experienced to the same degree during our own daughers college years, or in my "decades" of academia-</p>
<p>
[quote]
But to imply that each and every Mid has this earth-shattering, soul-searching questioning about their choice and opportunity to be at the USNA, is over-dramatic and I beg to say, fantasizing
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There is a whole company right now being put to the test as we speak- so I guess it is all a matter of perspective. Your mid is still fresh in the throws of his youngster year, and there is a whole lot of journey left ahead of him. Come back and talk to me when he has taken on the responsiblity of being an upperclassman, responsible and accountable for others underneath him. Come back to me when one his youngsters screws up, and an entire company pays the price. Hit a wall? Tonight there are quite a few hitting that wall- I trust they will all do just fine, but right now some of them don't see that- they will, but not now, not tonight. Tonight, last night, tomorrow night- lessons are being hammered in- and they are being hammered in from 5 am until lights out right now. In 24 days they come home for Thanksgiving- hopefully- but right now there are some that feel it is a long, long way away.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I'd bet my little ranch that a great many Mids would not portray this as monumentally, disproportionately complex and difficult. </p>
<p>
[/quote]
really.
I will take that bet-but I will caution you, the last time a cc poster proposed a bet they lost-
so where is that farm again? </p>
<p>Apparently there are some that find following the rules, doing the honorable thing, disporportionately complex and difficult- and the price the rest are paying for that lapse of judgement I will bet to say fit into the monumental category. Is is difficult to abide by the rules and regs? Shouldn't be- but for some, apparently it is clearly a challenge. </p>
<p>Fair and accurate it is. You have one year under your belt- and the lessons get compounded with each stripe added to the uniform.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What's the real point here? USNA is a challenging, elite, unique educational experience. Graduating requires overcoming lots of hurdles in multiple dimensions. Virtually all who are chosen and consequently choose to attend, finish. Statistically, it's monumentally tougher getting in than graduating. And tough as it may be, if it is even close to being the toughest thing Mids ever do, then they've failed miserably.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, yes, not necessarily, not necessarily, and for the last one- it may be the toughest thing they have done to date, but no doubt there will be tougher roads ahead. For those that decide this is not for them, they are not a failure in my eyes- miserable or otherwise-</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do not have the breath of experience to address all students
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We're in 100% agreement. ;) Nor do I, only that the glass I observe is 85% full, not 15% empty, having shattered at that mythical, metaphorical wall. Again, it ought to be comforting, enlightening, and encouraging to realize a student inducted has monumentally better odds of getting his degree and commission than his counterpart does of getting thru Slippery Rock. </p>
<p>I'm confident that candidates figure it out and grasp that life @ the Academy can be, and usually is challenging for its Mids. It's designed to be such and they are conditioned to make it before and during the experience. And virtually all seem to find a hole in that mythical wall. (Hey, maybe we can call those nearly 9 out of 10 Mids who make it in great shape and perfect time the "hole in the wall gang"?:cool:) And especially here on CC where young people and their parents are trying to understand and assess the realities vs. the myths of this whole (pun intended :)) experience... Well, it seems better to encourage and look at the survival, thriving numbers which are huge. It may be valuable for them to be assured that it's not even close to being impossible ...once they arrive @ The Yard. </p>
<p>The success numbers speak clearly for the quality of the young people attending and to the particularly clear point that while it's a monumental climb getting into the USNA, it's a virtual lock getting through ...IF one decides they wish to be there and/or they don't do something really dumb. Like sleeping with another Mid. (And even then, only 1 of 2 gets the boot, it seems. :() </p>
<p>And that's exactly as it should be in light of the difficult hurdle, i.e. that once in they should finish. </p>
<p>It may be valuable for students and parents to know there is one essential, monumental dynamic and difference between matriculating @ the local land grant vs. USNA. And it speaks to this discussion. Once Mids arrive, every resource the Academy has...EVERY resource including monumental amounts of money ... is directed at one thing: getting Mids through to graduation and commissioning. There is no "flunk out" mentality that the too large chemistry class may become more manageable or the corner study lounge might be cleared of freshmen overflow bunkbeds or there are too many weak pre-med majors. No preferred thinning of the herd mentality. And the longer it goes at USNA, the greater that investment and the stronger the need of USNA to get them to the finish line. And the sole job of USNA profs is one thing...teach and advise Midshipmen. While nice and often done, research is good...but should they fail in that task of teaching and advising, they've, well, failed. Try portraying that at Michigan or MIT. The point is that the entire dynamic is geared toward Midshipmen retention not winnowing. And the results show that.</p>
<p>Again, thanks for your observations and "breath" of experience. ;)</p>
<p>Whistle Pig,</p>
<p>Have to disagree. CVW's do "fill up." My son received an invite for CVW on September 15th and had the choice of either the October or November weekend. He is currently in NROTC and had to get permission to be away from the unit. Long story short, he called on October 1st to accept the invitation and was told both weekends were full. He asked for any other weekend and was told it was doubtful that he could have another weekend...he is still waiting to hear.</p>
<p>My advice would be if you get an invite to a CVW, call to accept immediately.</p>
<p>
[quote]
it's a virtual lock getting through ...IF one decides they wish to be there and/or they don't do something really dumb. Like sleeping with another Mid. (And even then, only 1 of 2 gets the boot, it seems. )
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that attitude is exactly what sinks the ship for some. NOTHING IS A LOCK, VIRTUAL OR OTHERWISE. And one should NEVER TAKE THEIR EYES OFF THE END GOAL. That is the best council I can offer any candidate, appointee, or current Mid. </p>
<p>I will agree that the objective is to have Mids successfully complete the requirements and gain that commission- and much is done to support just that. But in the end, it falls to each individual Mid to make the committment for success. Seek help. Follow the rules. Respect the rules. Do the honorable thing. </p>
<p>And while the goal is not to "whittle" (i think that is the word you wanted) the numbers down, USNA will not suffer fools easily. Looking solely at the numbers does not reflect the hurdles along the way- are they successful in accomplishing them? Most are.... but each class will loose about 15-20% along the way.... a wise Mid will do what is necessary NOT to be in that group.</p>
<p>This goes far beyond the academic stuff.... although academics is one factor. This is not St. Elsewhere, where you can get drunk ad nauseum, miss classes, pull some D's and F's and still stay at school on the public's dime. And while some get tripped up on the academics, there are still those that trip up on the stupid stuff- "typical college experience" is not the USNA, and better one knows that before one steps on the yard. </p>
<p>By advice stands as stated.</p>
<p>To repeat:
The hard part is not the getting in, it is the staying in.
Grades.
Attitude.
Perseverance.
Commitment.</p>
<p>Never lose sight of that.</p>
<p>2010 ...You've emphasized a very valuable and noteworthy point, rightly highlighting ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
it's a virtual lock getting through ...IF one decides they wish to be there and/or they don't do something really dumb. Like sleeping with another Mid. (And even then, only 1 of 2 gets the boot, it seems. )
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, your hypothesis is it's "harder" staying in than getting in. Mine is it's harder getting in than staying in. And we've discussed this generally and ad nauseum.:( Your position suggests that retention and graduation at USNA is monumentally, exceptionally "hard" in multiple ways. Mine is that statistically it's one of the surest, safest bets in the higher education world. </p>
<p>My earlier point, which you nicely brought to the fore, points out that of the approximately 15% of Midshipmen who do NOT graduate following their induction ...and a stat which you portray as horrifically high while I view as spectacularly low ... merits closer dissection in order for readers to clearly grasp the issues of retention and graduation probability in order to determine their own truth about this scenario. </p>
<p>As we know,there are 2 very disparate, specific groups among the modest 15% who depart: </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Those who choose to leave, and </p></li>
<li><p>Those who are "chosen" to be separated by USNA as a consequence of some sort of failure to perform. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Looking carefully, the evidence suggests that virtually all, and certainly most of the departed Mids, belong to group #1, i.e. those who decide of their OWN volition, to go elsewhere and thus depart USNA. </p>
<p>In fact very few Mids are separated for poor performance (academically, physically, behaviorally) or medical DQ. It's the rarest of events at USNA. I asked 2 Firsties about this scenario in their company of 150 or so Mids, and they reported in 3+ years not a single Mid had been separated for these issues among theirs. To be sure, I asked them again. Not one, they repeated. They did note there were some, about 5 or 6 per class they thought, who chose to leave, virtually all in plebe summer and year. There was one who decided against his 2 for 7 signing at the beginning of 2nd class year. There was another case of DUI of an upperclassman. He was punished but fortunately not separated. Another was feared to be separated for PT problems and they noted one case they'd heard of in previous years. They also noted the case menitoned earlier of a non-company Mid athlete who was separated for sleeping with another Mid in Bancroft. She was not separated, and not punished to public knowledge. So is this "poll" statistically valid? Of course not. But it's revealing.</p>
<p>What's the point here? It becomes very clear that despite the understandable claims to an exceptionally "hard" USNA, including classes, PT, ECs all requiring perseverance, commitment, the right attitude ... </p>
<p>Unless a Mid desires and chooses to depart, or he or she misbehaves big time ... the odds on finishing increase even more dramatically than just looking at the already good 85%. Probably the high 95% or more. </p>
<p>So is USNA challenging? Yep, in many ways. Do Mids struggle and grow? Of course.</p>
<p>Is it a near sure betto finish ... Absolutely ...IF ONE WANTS & CHOOSES to stay. A near slam dunk. </p>
<p>And the real Navy STAR in this, beyond the fabulous out-of-pocket cost for parents and Mids ... USNA Mids virtually all graduate in 4 years. Unheard of these days! </p>
<p>So we can continue on, but I won't. These stats don't lie no matter what we might like to believe or portray. BTW, did anyone note that the highest frosh/"plebe" retention rate among all colleges and universities as reported by US News last year? USAFA. I'm fully confident that USNA is hot on their high heels to be #1! ;) </p>
<p>One last thought (I promise!:eek:): Illustrating the assurance of graduating following matriculation in no way implies it's easy, or as you suggest USNA is not
[quote]
"St. Elsewhere, where you can get drunk ad nauseum, miss classes, pull some D's and F's and still stay at school on the public's dime.
[/quote]
Where'd that come from? Never, never assume! My junior high football coach illustrated that, as he was also an Enlish teacher! :confused:</p>
<p>So to suggest, imply or assume that one should "fear the goat" once admitted ...well reality says, while one may end up polishing Billy's "end ups," :eek: once that's done, it's back to Bancroft you'll go. That great goat will take you from start to finish and to places you've never dreamed ... and the statistics prove it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, for the latest 2009 US News rankings, USNA is far ahead of USAFA when it comes to Freshman retention rates:</p>
<p>USNA = 96.2% Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report - Freshman Retention
USMA = 91.7% Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report - Freshman Retention
USAFA = 90.5% Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report - Freshman Retention
USMMA = 90.2% Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report - Freshman Retention
USCGA = 85.5% Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report - Freshman Retention</p>
<p>If I may interject....</p>
<p>WP, it may be dangerous for potential Mids to see the phrase, "It's a slam dunk to graduate in four years from USNA." Your phrase was followed by a big, very important "IF" that may go unnoticed. It is true that USNA wants every incoming Plebe to succeed, and to eventually toss their cover at graduation. It is true that all sorts of help is available to allow Mids to succeed. My point is simply that, making it through any of the SAs is very hard work, and no candidate should kid himself/herself into thinking, "Once I get in, it's nearly a sure thing I will make it." Every one who gets in CAN make it, but ONLY through their own hard work and diligent studying. A Plebe in my Plebe's company is about to walk out the doors because the hard work part of it just didn't happen, even after the "wake-up call" of first 6 week grades.</p>
<p>And me too...
Lets not forget that once a Mid makes it to second class year - the stakes are high if at that point one desires to leave. It is easy at State U to say "I'm taking a year off, or I'm transferring for whatever reason." Not the case at a SA, can't just walk out that door without serious consequences, so most who might otherwise make that decision at another insitution will not do it at a SA, thus driving the retention rate up.</p>
<p>To add to 2012mom?
[quote]
Every one who gets in CAN make it, but ONLY through their own hard work and diligent studying.
[/quote]
the DESIRE to MAKE IT. Once one is faced with some of the adversity that can stare you in the face at a SA, desire can become very difficult. Although the statistics say 85% will graduate in 4 years, for each individual it is a 50 percent proposition - you either will or will not - personal choice for some, institutional choice for others.</p>
<p>Luigi ...there you go. The previous report had USAFA on top @ 92% which was amazing. USNA @ 96+% is incredible and lends to the point. We shouldn't be surprised though as the last 2 years have set consecutive records for fewest Mids departing in plebe summer.</p>
<p>2012...I'm confident they can read the whole/hole thing, aren't you? Dangerous for who? Is there anyone who'd conceive that this revelation on College Confidential is going to change one single thing at USNA? Let's get real and save the notion of "dangerous" for what our Commissioned children will face when there Yard days are done.</p>
<p>And the point of course is that no matter how it's done, it is. In nearly every case. I think this needs to be sent into "Mythbusters." :cool:</p>
<p>It's intriguing that so many find it so challenging to see it as it is. Sort of like the idea of pulling up the ladder once mine is into the tree house. It's a lot of hard work for a large band of men and women who virtually all make it. Say that. "It'll take a great effort. But just do what you're told to your very best ability, and you'll get your diploma and commission. It's a virtual guarantee! And there'll be bumps, for sure." </p>
<p>Why does honest, open examination of the facts revealing the extraordinary success somehow diminish this for a few? I choose to see it as clear evidence that USNA from admissions thru the process know how to do it ... and find comfort and encouragement in this. Sure, we can fret and wring our hands, convey and "brag" how difficult this is for our children (I do!) ...but we and others should know the edifying facts which reveal that it all works out well ...for virtually everyone who wants it to. Very few, rare exceptions to the contrary.</p>
<p>And the numbers prove it.</p>
<p>the numbers prove nothing, and profmom is correct in that the probability of any one mid stands at 50:50. </p>
<p>wp- please do not attribute a quote to me that is clearly not my words- I will refer to the quote you opened with in your post #91. if you are "rightly highlighting" then kindly make sure you note who's words you are highlighting- because they sure as heck are not mine.</p>
<p>We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree. You continue to talk to your firstie sources, and I will continue to offer council to the students assigned to me. My message stands as stated.</p>
<p>I sat through a week of training, including why mids get seperated, of their own volition or otherwise. Your persistance that this is a "slam dunk" is doing a great disservice to those who are considering a service academy. </p>
<p>My message to those new candidates on here trying to sort this all out-
your approach to this has to be full tilt. PLAN on studying hard, playing hard, working hard. PLAN on getting extra instruction- early, often, and as needed. Before you get here, write yourself a short note on why it is you chose to attept that appointment- tuck it away in your wallet, and pull it out on the day you hit that wall- cause despite what WP contends, you are going to hit it at some point. So be ready to push through. </p>
<p>USNA will not offer you an appointment if they don't believe you have what it takes to be successful here. But as several of the other posters have echoed, it all comes down to you.</p>
<p>One final point- very rare exceptions? about 200+ from each class- may not seem like much, but it's the whole shigalla for those caught in that quagmire. There is a limit as to how much remediation can be done- and how much time you have to do it. Slam dunk it isn't.</p>
<p>Pondering this a bit, I suspect that this may just be the USNA version of that old collegiate lore (not lure ...that's for fishing, this is about fables. ;)) of when the crochety mean dean was addressing us on our own I Days or whatever that day was called, admonishing us to "look to the right, now to the left. One of you sorry sacks won't be here next semester." Of course we all were there, having a blast, altho the guy to my left was working to get off probation. Shot that myth down in flames! And so too do the Midshipmen. With heat-seeking missiles! :eek:</p>
<p>btw, speaking of words, 2010, you note ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
...the goal is not to **"whittle"<a href="i%20think%20that%20is%20the%20word%20you%20wanted">/b</a>
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<p>...after I had written in the context of describing the culture of USNA and its dedication to the purpose of retaining rather than exiting Mids, and my comment went like this:</p>
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… the entire dynamic is geared toward Midshipmen retention, not winnowing.
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<p>Let me assure you, the word I used was the word I preferred. Winnowing. It's sorta big but let’s take a look:</p>
<p>*winnowing *- 1. to remove as chaff by a current of air (let's save "chaff" for another time, ok?) 2. to get rid of 3. to free of inferior elements 4. to separate the desirable from the undesirable. </p>
<p>You'll find this is often used in agrarian arenas. Appropriate and in order, don't you think, especially from a dumb rancher? :confused: In any case, I find it a more interesting, rich, descriptive choice than “whittling” which is sort of like "spittling" and "piddiling" both nasty, ugly type descriptors. Besides, I always thought "whittle" was how Elmer Fudd described that old Bugs Bunny. You know, "that whittle, wascally wabbit!" :eek: </p>
<p>(Sorry, I weally wanted to wesist … but alas, could not. :confused:)</p>
<p>Finally, you go on, noting:</p>
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[quote]
I think that attitude is exactly what sinks the ships ... each class will **loose<a href="sic?">/b</a> about 15-20% along the way....
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<p>I don't want to assume and inquiring minds want to know ... Did you mean “loose” or “lose”?</p>
<p>A quick review reveals ...</p>
<p>*loose *– 1. these are a type of lips that sink ships 2. a term generally used by sailors, Midshipmen, and cowboys to describe their romantic interests in foreign and faraway ports-of-call or at local rodeos. 3. as in coins found in the pocket, often called change, and like the empty promises of politicians, not worth much</p>
<p>lose – 1. Mids misplaced 2. Or to lose one's mind :confused:</p>
<p>Were the Midshipmen you were referring to loose or just lost? There's a world of difference according to Webster. </p>
<p>Hey, always fun. Thanks for clarifying.</p>
<p>GO NAVY! Beat Army!</p>
<p>P.S. The lesson here ... One should never, ever assume she knows what she thinks someone else should have written. Did I ever tell you about my junior hi coach who also taught English? :confused:</p>
<p>Quagmire? ( a difficult, precarious, or entrapping position ) It's not a "quagmire" for those who choose to go. It's their desired choice in virtually all cases. Don't you think the "quagmire" would be if they had to stay?</p>
<p>Hey 2010, so sorry ... you note:</p>
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please do not attribute a quote to me that is clearly not my words-
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<p>Certainly did not intend to, nor did I indicate in any way that you said these things. Reading carefully and specifically, I observed:</p>
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You've emphasized a very valuable and noteworthy point, rightly highlighting ...
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<p>No where does it say you wrote the point or even agree. You merely highlighted it in quotes, and I was recognizing and applauding your doing so, no matter why you chose to do so. </p>
<p>So sorry you misunderstood.</p>
<p>On your point of ...</p>
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the numbers prove nothing ...the probability of any one mid stands at 50:50
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<p>Your stats professor might concur ...if each person were flipping a coin and matriculation were a game of chance. But this is not about flipping a coin, nor a game of chance. It's about the odds-on likelihood of any Mid being in Memorial Stadium for graduation. And the probability is known. Nearly 9 out of 10 who would flip your mythical, metaphorical coin, in fact end up giving away that silver coin to the deliverer of his or her first salute as a commissioned officer in the USN or USMC. It is NOT a 50-50 chance of survival. More misleading mythology. That silly argument suggests retention is merely a matter of chance. It's not.</p>
<p>And stating, "the numbers prove nothing ..." and then in the very same sentence using 50:50 numbers and the misused concept of probability to attempt to prove your point that they don't prove anything ... well, just let me say I'd like to offer my services should you decide to run for office or accept an appointment in the Treasury Department. We've heard those types of contradictions forever it seems. :eek: Thank the good Lord the campaign is over. :)</p>
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</p>
<p>To equate the percentage of success at any SA to pure chance is irresponsible. </p>
<p>Just because the eventual outcome has only 2 possibilities (graduation or separation), that does not mean the probability of each is 50/50.</p>
<p>If the NY Giants were playing PS#172 this weekend (they'll either win or they'll lose, right?), would you say the probablility for each outcome is 50/50?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Flawed premise. It doesn't happen to 100% (everyone). A single exception (and I know more than 1) invalidates your assumption.</p>
<p>As a current Midshipman to also say that you know Mids that have never hit the wall is probably untrue - they have just never expounded to mommy or daddy. But trust me we all go through it to a different extent at some point in time here on the yard.</p>
<p>On the days I have had major meltdowns and the questioning has occurred. There are only two outcomes that can happen - I go or I decide to stay. 50:50 for that choice plan, pure and simple.</p>
<p>Now all you statistics types can tell me that it is not so but hey in my mind and MANY other Mids minds those are the only two outcomes prior to second class year. Then the steaks become muddied. Is it worth leaving - yes, no and maybe are my choices. Is 3 years enlisted a choice - depends, is about $150000 (about the going rate for 1st semester 2/C's depends (if you can swing it) Or I may get both. 4 choices to be made with the yes for staying being weighted much more heavily due to the 3 other choices. How that weighs is up to each and every one of us here. You guys in the cheap seats can not put any value on those choices - you're not here and don't get how we find ourselves hitting the wall.</p>
<p>Yes about 85% graduate but ask many of those if they at any one time would have preferred to have been somewhere else and the numbers are going to be staggering. 85% is no slam dunk of an outcome by any means. Being here I can tell you it has been harder to stay than it was to get in. </p>
<p>I can say also for many of us it was not hard to get an appointment. I dedcided in Sophomore year to try - I did not rearrange any classes, EC, sports or community service plan to position my self for USNA, (personally if you do you are selling yourself short) My highschool plans were so that I would have many choices of where to submit an application. It worked as I was accepted to all but one college which today I probably would have not been able to afford. For USNA the process wasn't any more difficult, just a bit more time consuming to make sure all parts were complete. I filled out a preliminary app and then the full one - just like all of the other school. I had letters of rec sent along with transcripts sent just like every other school.The same people were used for all letters of rec - not one tailored to each institution or nominating source. I wrote the essays which were pretty much a version of the essay used for the common ap. so again not much other work there. Went on my BGO interview - interviewed at the majority of the other schools too -that was actually more difficult as some required travel. Put together the 3 nomination packages which were virtually identical even in the two extra essays. Not much more work than the honors scholarship application for a few on my other applications. Spent a day at DODMRB, took CFA at summer scaminar so no time sink there. Had all application completed by end of September to all schools and nominating sources. Had LOA by October 14 and Appointment in December when nominations came in. Was not anymore stressful than plan B or C. Took my time accepting as I wanted to really make an informed decision so did not accept until April. Looking back three years later that was the walk in the park - the slam dunk. Certainly not the last 5 semesters here and really not this semester. They make Junior year a nightmare right after it gets more difficult to exercise your options - wonder why that it is -- to get that 85%-- just food for thought.</p>