Choosing Between UPenn and UMich

College Search & Selection
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<p>Hello!</p>

<p>I am really struggling with my choice between University of Michigan and University of Pennsylvania.
In the case of financial aid, Michigan gave me about 6,000 more than Penn, but I am still in discussion with Penn.</p>

<p>I plan on majoring in Engineering, specifically Computer Science or Computer Engineering (I haven't decided).</p>

<p>I visited Penn and loved everything about it, but had a hard time dealing with many of the other prospective students. Normally I am a outgoing person, but possibly in that case I might have just been very reserved since I was in a completely new situation. However, I did get the sense that there is a pretentious East Coast vibe to Penn and I was struggling to relate to many of the other prospective students, since I am from a lower middle-class family in the Midwest.</p>

<p>As for Michigan, I enjoy the sports atmosphere and the people, as I have visited many times. My only concern is that the school may be too big for me and I may not get the same attention during college as I would in a smaller engineering program like Penn's.</p>

<p>And as ironically pretentious as it sounds, I am a little hung up on the fact that Penn is an Ivy League school with plenty of connections and opportunities after college. It was also my dream school for quite a while and I worked my butt off to get in.
I know that Michigan is also a great school.</p>

<p>I also have questions about these two schools:
1. Is it possible to double major in business or even minor (as for Penn, I did not apply to M&T)?
2. Does anyone know how the research is for environmental & energy sustainability at these schools? I am very interested in this as well, and would like to go to a school that keeps my options open and endless since I will most likely change my mind.</p>

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<p>"I am really struggling with my choice between University of Michigan and University of Pennsylvania.
In the case of financial aid, Michigan gave me about 6,000 more than Penn, but I am still in discussion with Penn.</p>

<p>I plan on majoring in Engineering, specifically Computer Science or Computer Engineering (I haven’t decided)."</p>

<p>And since Michigan is roughly $8k cheaper than Penn when you consider total CoA (tuition, room and board etc…), that would make Michigan $14k/year ($50k over four years) cheaper than Penn. As a self-described lower-middle income family, is it possible to justify the added cost, especially when you consider the fact that Michigan is a little stronger than Penn in your intended field of study?</p>

<p>“I visited Penn and loved everything about it, but had a hard time dealing with many of the other prospective students. Normally I am a outgoing person, but possibly in that case I might have just been very reserved since I was in a completely new situation. However, I did get the sense that there is a pretentious East Coast vibe to Penn and I was struggling to relate to many of the other prospective students, since I am from a lower middle-class family in the Midwest.”</p>

<p>I would not worry about this. For one thing, Penn has many students who come from lower and lower middle income families. And many upper middle and up income family kids are very down to earth. You will easily fit in at Penn. Also, Michigan, like Penn, has its fair share of “pretentious” students. In fact, on average, Michigan students tend to come from equally affluent backgrounds as Penn students.</p>

<p>“As for Michigan, I enjoy the sports atmosphere and the people, as I have visited many times. My only concern is that the school may be too big for me and I may not get the same attention during college as I would in a smaller engineering program like Penn’s.”</p>

<p>Michigan is indeed much larger than Penn. Michigan has 28,000 undergrads and 43,000 students in total, compared to Penn’s 10,000 undergrads and 24,000 students in total. Michigan’s CoE has 6,000 undergrads, compared to Penn’s 1,700. However, it is important to keep size of faculty and resources availability in mind. Michigan’s CoE has a faculty of 370, compared to Penn SEAS’ 110. In terms of research output, Michigan CoE’s research expenditure last year was $230 million, compared to Penn SEAS’ $110 million. So while Michigan’s CoE is indeed significantly larger than Penn’s SEAS, so are its resources. Either way, you are not likely to get much attention from Engineering faculty at Michigan or at Penn. Michigan’s CoE’s student to faculty ratio is a whopping 25:1 (6,000 undergrads, 3000 grads and 370 faculty) while Penn’s is an equally impressive 30:1 (1,700 undergrads, 1,600 grads and 110 faculty)!</p>

<p>“And as ironically pretentious as it sounds, I am a little hung up on the fact that Penn is an Ivy League school with plenty of connections and opportunities after college.”</p>

<p>Michigan will offer you similar connections and opportunities after college. </p>

<p>“1. Is it possible to double major in business or even minor (as for Penn, I did not apply to M&T)?”</p>

<p>It is possible to double major in CS (LSA) and Business (Ross), but it may take an extra semester to do so. Majoring in CS and Minoring in Business is also now an option. Double majoring in CE (CoE) and Business (Ross) is also possible, but it would probably take two extra semesters to graduate. </p>

<p>I am not sure how flexible Wharton is about admitting students already enrolled at Penn, or if Wharton offers a minor in Business.</p>

<p>“2. Does anyone know how the research is for environmental & energy sustainability at these schools? I am very interested in this as well, and would like to go to a school that keeps my options open and endless since I will most likely change my mind.”</p>

<p>Someone else will have to respond this one. I can imagine both schools will offer undergrads ample research opportunities. </p>

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<p>Does UMich give 100% grants? Because UPenn does. $6,000 difference if UMich isn’t giving you full grants is a lot of money you will owe.</p>

<p>UPenn will open more doors for you, but if you do end up in the Midwest, the connections might be a wash.</p>

<p>I know that CAS at Penn has economics, and that you can’t transfer immediately to Wharton. I do know people who double majored in SEAS and Wharton at Penn, without being in M&T.</p>

<p>UMich is REALLY huge, Penn is pretty big but not huge. Penn is very diverse, yes East Coast students are common because so many of us apply, but there are many students from around the US. I did not fit in well in HS, but felt at home at Penn. </p>

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<p>I don’t think Penn is going to open more doors than Michigan in the engineering or business world – either choice is perfectly fine. I would ignore the perceived prestige difference (it is truly non-existent in the post-college world) and go with the less expensive college you feel more comfortable at anyway.</p>

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<p>bump?</p>

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<p>I’d go to the school where you feel most comfortable. Personally I’d choose Penn (and for full disclosure I’m an alum) if you can afford the price differential… I do think the Ivy name opens doors, Penn is large but still much smaller than UM, and Phila. is a fun city to go to college. However, if you want to stay in the Midwest and UM is more affordable then it is a great choice. Congratulations on having such wonderful options. </p>

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<p>DD was also accepted to both for Engineering. You can get an excellent education at either school. There is no definitive right or wrong answer. She chose Penn, but I know that if she had chosen Michigan she would have gotten an excellent education there too.</p>

<p>One plus for Michigan is college sports. If that is important to you, Michigan could be a better fit.</p>

<p>One minus at Michigan in her mind was that the Engineering classes are in a location that is not part of the main campus. She thought it felt a bit isolated.</p>

<p>You will have to apply at either school to add a business major. Neither school will be automatic, but Wharton will set the bar significantly higher for admission than Ross. I do know that at Penn CS majors can at least get a minor in Entrepreneurship at Wharton without an additional application.</p>

<p>Michigan is selective, and accepts about 35% of applicants; Penn is very selective and accepts 10% of applicants.</p>

<p>As far as prestige, I grew up in Michigan where most people think that Harvard is the Michigan of the East and have never heard of Penn (you will have to say “No, not Penn State.”) Penn is better known on the coasts. </p>

<p>Penn is an Ivy League school by the traditional definition, and Michigan claims it is an Ivy too <a href=“http://umichadmissions.■■■■■■■■■■/tagged/asks”>http://umichadmissions.■■■■■■■■■■/tagged/asks&lt;/a&gt; .</p>

<p>I think it comes down to your personal comfort with each school and how significant the monetary difference is to you.</p>

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<p>I should add that I found out today that Penn matched Michigan, so now financial need is not really a factor…</p>

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<p>If you lean toward CS go with Penn (I think it’s better than its engineering fprogram). If you lean toward Engineering, Michigan cannot be beaten.
However, I’m NOT stating that CS from Penn is better than CS from Michigan.</p>

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<p>Could anyone speak about the difference in internship opportunities for the two schools throughout the undergraduate years?
Also my concern with Michigan is that since it is significantly larger, it will be a lot more competitive than the smaller engineering school at Penn.</p>

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<p>@Much2learn what were the pros and cons of the two schools that made your daughter choose Penn?</p>

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<p>Why DD chose Penn?</p>

<p>She is a student who is very strong academically and the students at Penn are stronger overall (she also liked this about Columbia where she was also accepted). She wants to be with students who are more like her, and she likes the challenge of it. Michigan certainly has some students that are just as strong as Penn, but the average student is not.</p>

<p>She is also very sociable. I think that both Penn and Michigan present excellent social opportunities in addition to academics.</p>

<p>She likes sports and is an athlete, but she is not as heavily into college football and basketball as many of the Michigan students are. That was a minus for Michigan from her perspective, but would probably be a plus for many people.</p>

<p>She also preferred the continuity of the Penn campus over the Michigan campus that seemed more intermixed with the town. She also did not like the remoteness of the Michigan Engineering facilities.</p>

<p>Finally we took the train from a station a few blocks from Penn and were in NYC in an hour and 15 minutes. She likes the ability to go there on a weekend with friends.</p>

<p>The plus to Michigan from my perspective is that they offered her an $80,000 scholarship, and Penn offered nothing. </p>

<p>What I told her in the end was that which school you choose will not matter as much as what you achieve there. Where do you think you will be the most happy and engaged? At which school can you see yourself doing research, getting involved in clubs, doing internships, and accumulating experiences that both build credentials and help you grow as a person? College is much more than classes and grades. Which school are you actually excited about? If you are torn between the school you want to attend and the one you think you should attend, choose the one you want to attend. You will be happier and consequently more likely to be successful. For her, the answer was Penn, although she felt a bit guilty about the money. </p>

<p>Please let us know what you decide. Good luck.</p>

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<p><a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Computer Sciences”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124721/&lt;/a&gt;
Penn: #7-18
Michigan: #10-25</p>

<p>UPenn has an equally strong Computer Science program, smarter overall students, greater undergraduate focus, and is located in closer proximity to major cities where a lot of tech firms are based. Michigan is great as well but I think Penn has the clear edge if costs are equal.</p>

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<p>So many misconceptions. Engineers at Penn will not receive more attention than students at Michigan. Both are research-centric programs with a similar student to faculty ratio and identical availability of resources. At Penn, there are over 3,000 Engineering students, and only 110 professors to educate them, At Michigan, there are 10,000 Engineering students, but 370 professors. Either way, the faculty at both schools is going to be busier advising graduate students, chasing funding for its research and publishing outcomes of their research than instructing undergraduate students. If you really want personal attention, you should go to Harvey Mudd or Rose Hulman. </p>

<p>Also, when it comes to tech firms, internships and placement (both graduate school and professional), CS students at both universities will have similar opportunities, Michigan will trump Penn in Computer Engineering. Penn may have the edge with NYC tech firms thanks to its proximity, but Michigan will have the edge with Silicon Valley firms.</p>

<p>Since cost is no longer a concern, I would go with your gut. </p>

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<p>I’d go to Mich (I’m an intending CS major as well)… I don’t think any of the ivies except for maybe Cornell can match UMich for CS. Plus Ann Arbor is a great college town.</p>

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<p>I am from the east coast and have lived in the midwest for 15+ years. In terms of career options, people are not going to look down on Michigan at all. Michigan and Berkeley are considered, at least in my experience having worked in Philly, NYC, and Boston, as the top publics, the ones which are comparable to the very best east coast schools. </p>

<p>The biggest differences I would see are cultural – Philly is a manageable city, and Penn provides some buffer from city life so that students can focus inward on school life or outward to the city and beyond. Ann Arbor is a classic college town. College is a time to explore, so getting pushed out of your comfort zone is okay but, you don’t want to feel lost. Only you can judge your reaction to the “east coast vibe” and whether it comes from newness, discomfort or anxiety. </p>

<p>I don’t think the difference between large public and large private is a significant basis for a decision. You are not comparing Michigan to a 1600 person LAC. Both Michigan and Penn are large research institutions. There will be bureaucracy and some pushing and shoving to get the research opportunities you want at both schools. </p>

<p>If the money is now more or less equal, I would say go where you feel comfortable and excited to be. </p>

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<p>This cannot be repeated enough in these threads. :)</p>

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<p>^ Agree. I don’t see any clear advantage one way or the other. As for Michigan sport though, besides football and basketball, swimming and figure skating/ice dance are excellent too.</p>

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<p>No clear advantages besides Penn’s Ivy League reputation, smarter students, more diverse undergraduate population, better advising, and more versatile career placement? You can double major in Computer Science and Economics at Penn and choose between working for investment banks, management consulting firms, and tech firms your senior year of college. The same cannot be said of Michigan where your career will directly correlate with what you study in school. That’s something to keep in mind.</p>

<p>I vote for Penn here unless you’re a huge fan of college sports.</p>

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<p>For what it’s worth, until recently Penn was seen as the “big time” school in Ivy League sports. Basketball and football teams dominated the conference for years. Basketballers came close to upsetting top major conference teams a few times. And of course we all remember Penn’s remarkable run in the NCAAs until they ran into Magic Johnson in the Final Four. So, one can enjoy athletics at both Michigan and Penn, although on a larger scale at UM, Obviously.</p>

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