College Confidential has one of the worst law forums...

Graduate School Law School
21

<p>notaznguy,</p>

<p>I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the advice on this board.</p>

<p>I sort of did the same thing with a thread telling people who are interested in IR schools to seriously think about their decision. While it’s true that the majority of IR school grads are working great jobs and are happy with their paths, it’s another field that has too many degree holders and not enough jobs.</p>

<p>Graduate school is a potential risk. While I now earn more than I think I would have without my graduate degree, I know many people who ended up earning the same as they did coming out of undergrad, only now they lost 2+ years of income and have tens of thousands more in debt.</p>

<p>It’s very very good to be skeptical of grad school.</p>

22

<p>TLS is informative, but the characteristic you enjoy is what makes it less of an ideal place to seek advice. The people are very optimistic with very little to show for it. That’s mostly because of the moderating team. It’s generally frowned upon, there, to be overly negative about a school. If someone is thinking about attending the South Texas College of Law, a poster who degrades the school and laments its terrible job prospects is viewed as a ■■■■■ and is banned. The posts that actually do tend to make it through are filtered. They tend to be positive. They tend to mislead.</p>

<p>The Legal Employment forum is more realistic, so if you read that you’ll realize that the advice there is not different from here. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I have gone through the process of admissions. In fact, I’m a 3L at a T5 school now, have interviewed with the big firms and worked with a top one last summer. My advice is based on that experience. What’s lacking is that I’m not yet a full-time attorney, but you don’t find very many of those on TLS either. In fact, I think there are more practicing attorneys who post here. And there are wayyyy more on xo, which might be a little too pessimistic for your precious, uninformed ears.</p>

23

<p>Agreed with OP. Too much negativity.</p>

<p>Sadly, many, many fields leave people unemployed, downsized, and few places of employment. My own career, for which I have a Masters, now requires a Doctorate to practice. Job outlook just posted, 10th. Great, but so unrealistic. Don’t know who gets paid to come up with these stats. Most people I know (and we all have decent paying, interesting jobs) would not go into the field again. Is law a poorer choice than other majors requiring grad school (and its costs)? The lawyers in my family (there are 4 of them) are all doing very well to fabulously. New graduates in this poor economy will suffer in most fields. </p>

<p>The negativity on these law forums focus on Big Law or No Law. T-14 or Nothing. How about focusing on reality? What is appropriate loans to consider? Good locations for law other than big cities? Private practice? Areas of law which you wouldn’t normally consider or know where out there? </p>

<p>My son will start law school in the Fall and graduate without any debt (undergrad or grad school). Hopefully he will find a field of law he loves and can earn a decent living and provide for his family.</p>

<p>(Tired of all this. When I read the Engineering threads, you get the same negative advice. If it were left up to the CC group, I think there would be a list of 5 majors and they’d tell everyone else not to go college!)</p>

<p>Good luck to all current and future law students.</p>

24

<p>There’s a difference between pessimism and realism. It’s even funnier to see optimism sprout from ignorance (though I guess one tends to come from the other). Crazed, I hope you remove the rose-tinted glasses soon.</p>

25

<p>I’ve long cautioned people on this site about taking on excessive debt. I’ve also shared details of my own past where it’s relevant; I went to law school the last time the umemployment rate was in double digits, and struck out on what is now known as “Big Law”. I took a job with a small firm, and left after a couple of years to start my own firm. It wasn’t the most lucrative path, but I learned things about practicing law that my friends at big firms could only dream of. (The converse no doubt true as well.) I ended up going in-house at a time when the economy was white hot, and have worked in-house ever since (minus about two weeks of unemployment).</p>

<p>It’s tough to graduate from law school when unemployment is high. That was true when I went to law school, and it’s true now. It’s a lot tougher to graduate from law school without a lot of debt than it was in the 80s. I’ve always tried to tread a fine line on this board of not leading anyone on about today’s economic realities, but hoping that my experiences may give some hope to people who really would be happy practicing law over the next few decades. There are lean years, but there are also fat years.</p>

26

<p>As the parent of a future prospective law student, I appreciate the advice and feedback on this forum from the attorneys and law students. If my son does end up going to law school, at least he will be doing it with his eyes open.</p>

27

<p>Wow, flowerhead, “optimism from ignorance”? Dear God, when did stating your opinion become being ignorant?</p>

<p>It seem more and more these days that getting behind a username on a website forum equates to having the power to be completely rude, mean, and bitter the second you disagree with someone.</p>

<p>I think more or less the problem isn’t necessarily all about the Law School forum being too negative, but rather it is about this website’s forum in general being very negative. Now, to the OP: yes, the lawyer market really is pretty bad. It is not at its peak, and big firms are cutting jobs left and right. So, when these people say there is a lot of unemployment to watch out for, it is not to be taken as pure pessimism.</p>

<p>Now, to the rest of the board arguing against the OP: I believe what he is trying to say is that maybe instead of saying all the problems with the law profession market right now that there should be an equal balance. I can say first hand that at the University of Mississippi (yes, a state-school in the South, not a private or Ivy League school), for the class of 2010, the employment rate IN THE LAW FIELD (which means not counting McDonald’s workers or those who pursued other interests) was 79% by September of 2010. That number came from the Alumni Association’s yearly surveys in which they reported 86% of the students who received a J.D. in May 2010 responded. Were these “BIGLAW” firms? Nope. The majority of them went to Memphis, Birmingham, Nashville, Little Rock, Jackson, and New Orleans. Some stayed in Mississippi in smaller cities like Southaven, Hattiesburg, and Tupelo. The average salary among the 79% was $62,800/year. The average debt was $39,500. The reason this is low is because U. of MS is not private, and the in-state law school tuition is about 11k a year, out of state about 20k.</p>

<p>So, yes. There is plenty of truth to the situation in the job market for law students right now. However, blanketing the entire law industry by saying that only the top of the class at the top 15 schools will get jobs making decent money is false. If you want BIGLAW, that is fine. But, if you just want to practice and make decent money with lots of room to grow, going to a state school in law will save you money, and you are not doomed to find a job. It’s not New York, and you will have to drive yourself to work instead of taking a taxi, but you will make some good money.</p>

<p>Please, everybody. Let’s just build up and help support these students and such by giving them hope. If all we do is say how terrible things are, how much debt there will be, and cutting down any school that U.S. News doesn’t rank as top 25, what good are we doing? Is it good to tell somebody that there only chance of having a decent life is to plunge into some 50k/year school and go to L.A. or New York?</p>

28

<p>

I think many here would love to hear you elaborate on “meaningful employment”.</p>

29

<p>

</p>

<p>Okay. So you know that at least 0.79*0.86 = 67% of JD grads are employed. It could be as high as 81%, but non-response bias suggests it’s in the low end of that range. So it looks like 30% of Mississippi grads could not find legal jobs. Fortunately, the average indebtedness is sort of low, although $40K is pretty terrifying for the 30% who are unemployed and in any case you have to remember that it’s an average, not a ceiling.</p>

<p>Now understand that there are lots of students who pay much, much more than that to go to worse law schools. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, the idea is to encourage students not to go to law school if they don’t have a concrete, realistic plan to deal with the debt.</p>

30

<p>

</p>

<p>No, but it probably does count contract attorneys, who have no job security, potential for advancement or benefits, and people volunteering in an attempt to gain some kind of marketable experience. It may even include paralegals.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Did all of the 79% report salary information? In a lot of these surveys, only a minority of grads reporting employment status also report their salary (generally the ones with higher salaries). And is this an average or a median? The average starting salary is usually higher than the median, skewed by a handful of high salaries. It’s pretty safe to say that the median University of Mississippi grad makes well under $60K a year. Anyone who considers taking on significant debt ($40K is significant when you earn less than $60K, or when you can’t find work at all) to attend should keep that in mind. I don’t think that’s such a terrible thing to suggest. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Encouraging them to be skeptical instead of blindly optimistic? Getting them to reconsider potentially disastrous decisions? The people who simply tell you that you can do anything you put your mind to, and that you should always follow your dreams are not going to be there to pay your loans if you can’t get a job.</p>

31

<p>flowerhead- Your post is embarrassing. Fortunately for my son, my husband (atty), 2 BIL’s and a SIL are all atty’s so I think they are knowledgeable and I don’t need your advice. Would you suggest my son be a high school teacher (great salary on Long Island IF you can get a job) instead of becoming an atty? What wonderful fields do you suggest to all these posters? </p>

<p>NY- tri-state area is expensive to live in. Big law or any high paying job as an attorney would be great. That said, not everyone wants to live here. I don’t think my son would want to pay the taxes on Long Island (and home prices) that we pay. </p>

<p>No one expects it to be easy to gain employment in this economy, but I think that stands for most fields these days. (By the way, most of my Doctor friends would not recommend medicine either, due to HMO’s and high cost of malpractice, long hrs, etc.)</p>

<p>As the parent of a brilliant (yes, he is) son, i am optimistic he will succeed. Like I stated earlier, no debt undergrad and none for law school. Full tuition scholarship as undergrad certainly helped and he was great $$$ offers at numerous schools. I hope he finds a stimulating job as boredom is common in many fields after you’ve been in them/same job for a long time.</p>

<p>The job market is bad for everyone. I agree about all the debt, but then again, I wouldn’t suggest anyone take out huge undergrad loans either, no matter what the field.</p>

32

<p>^</p>

<p>Your son will be fine since he has no debt from schooling and he sounds like a smart guy. The posters here are talking about going to a low ranked law school with big chunk of debt, and that is a horrible decision. Yet, many people in the real world seem to be making that exact decision, which is why it is a noteworthy issue of discussion.</p>

33

<p>Thanks Lazykid.</p>

<p>My son is in a good position. As my husband and I say, “It is good to be him.” I had undergrad and grad school loans, so I know that no debt is the way to go.</p>

<p>For others, being realistic is key, I believe. It will be harder to pay off the loans with midline salary. Hopefully, in time the economy will pick up, salary too, and all will be good. May take time though. </p>

<p>As you stated so well, the kids at lower ranked schools will most likely be at a disadvantage. (I have quite a few friends with kids in this category and besides the school, these kids are not the brightest of the group either.)</p>

<p>I hope over time, all will find good jobs in the field of law that they like and while they may not be “rich” will lead comfortable lives and be able to meet their families needs (and put plenty of $$ away for their kids education!!!)</p>

<p>All should not expect the get rich quick jobs and there will be less disappointment.</p>

34

<p>Seems like I pushed a button.</p>

<p>1) I am not opposed to people attending law school. I am opposed to people attending law school for the wrong reasons, and to people who wish to encumber themselves with law school debt for little to show for it. If your kid is getting a full scholarship somewhere, and really, really wants to be a lawyer, by all means.</p>

<p>2) That brings me to my second point. How does one know if they really, really want to be a lawyer? Job satisfaction is notoriously low in law, mostly because people don’t fully grasp what it takes to be a lawyer, and how boring it can be at even the most high-paid sectors of the law. Thus, the odds are already stacked against your kid in terms of his ability to derive satisfaction from his job. His odds increase if he’s spent some time examining the type of work attorneys in his desired field do. I know a girl who spent two years as a paralegal at Skadden before heading to a top law school. When she says, “I want to work at a big firm,” I trust her judgment more than most.</p>

<p>But outside of law, there are many equally, if not more, fulfilling professions out there. I wouldn’t be surprised if 70% of the people entering law school don’t have a good appreciation of what being a lawyer involves, that a small minority of them end up liking it anyways, and the rest ultimately are either dissatisfied or just leave the law entirely after a number of years in the field. I find it even more foolish that some are willing to embrace these odds.</p>

<p>But I can’t talk too much, I guess. I went to law school for all the wrong reasons. I got lucky, though. I liked the job that I got, and I… got a job. And I got it in the worst interviewing season of all time. But, really, though, if I think my experience is not a good model for others. And if I had a way of telling myself in the past not to go to law school and to think seriously about the debt, I’d do it.</p>

35

<p>Pt. #2 from above… totally agreed. That said, and it is in no way pro or con law, so many professions get old and boring, lacking in stimulation. (I put myself in that category along with most of my friends in a variety of health care professions. Don’t know one that would go into the field again and we all think the other has it better than we do. On top of that, 2 years of grad school and now 3 is required of those in grad school for my profession.)</p>

<p>Not for this thread, but I wonder which profession has the happiest (long term) workers??? (And makes decent $$$ too???)</p>

36

<p>Wish I had become a teacher instead of a lawyer…money isn’t everything. Unfortunately, teaching jobs were very hard to find 30+ years ago too.</p>

<p>My DS isn’t as brilliant as Crazed’s son, but he is doing ok at his law school. He attends a good state law school, and will have debt <$100K. DS has a great work ethic (not too proud to do scut work into the evening or weekends), is tall & good looking (heads turn wherever he goes - not just parental pride), and has excellent people and networking skills. When DS graduates he won’t be looking for biglaw - just a midsize firm or a corporate legal department where he can do a good job for a client. As a 2L, he’s been offered a summer job in a law firm for $10/hr. </p>

<p>Just saying that the reality can be very different from the expectations.</p>