<p>so far , calmom, it appears that your kids can do no wrong and ours can do no right.;) It's not your message that bothers folks, it's the tone. No one wants to be lectured to, not you, not me, not marite. And your last line? That wasn't really neccessary? Was it?
These are the poster's kids you are talking about, do you realize that?</p>
<p>Calmom:</p>
<p>I prefer to stop the dialogue rather than be rude or be insulted. And that is positively my last post to you.</p>
<p>I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying that I let my kids make their own mistakes and deal with the consequences. That means they definitely do not lead perfect or charmed lives... they just don't expect mommy or daddy to come in to clean up or run interference for them. I'm sorry if the "tone" is offensive ... but I am rather stunned at the attitude that some parents have about the suggestion that an 18 year old ought to be able to handle a little red tape on his or her own.</p>
<p>And some may feel that some parents are too quick to abdicate parental responsibilty for their teenagers for whatever reasons they want to espouse, but criticizing another parent on the board for a subjective parenting choice where reasonable minds can and do differ, or worse yet criticizing a child of a poster in such an instance, is simply "not good form".</p>
<p>Calmom - a child who can coherently type a letter articulating to her teacher her specific learning needs at the age of 5 is a prodigious child indeed. Most kids I know can't even read or spell at that age, let alone boot up a computer and type! Perhaps a kid that intelligent can indeed fend for herself in the educational bureaucracy - though I've read that due to certain attitudes in many school system, gifted kids require incredible amounts of parental advocacy in order to have their needs met. </p>
<p>I know some kids who suffered from a similar problem to your daughter's - they weren't learning anything in their kindergarten classes. Unfortunately for them, their parents stepped in to ensure that the necessary accomodations were made, never giving them the chance to "make their own mistakes and deal with the consequences." Except they weren't gifted - they were learning disabled. I shudder to think what would have happened if, as kindergarteners, they'd been told to log on to Windows and write a letter in Microsoft Word about their difficulties... So much for teaching kids about how to start "dialogues." I'm glad it worked for your kid, but it's not the best solution for many others.</p>
<p>Look, one thing I've learned about parenting is that it is somewhat of a mystery. We all make our choices and follow our values but it's something of a Rube Goldberg machine. You can't always know what is going to come out the other end. As just one example, remember how you were supposed to train your kids to sleep through the night or they would never be able to sleep? Well I just couldn't do it, just couldn't let them cry. Many of my friends did it. Come 6-7 years later, some of these same other kids slept on the floor of their parents' room because they got scared of burglars. And there are other examples where I followed some theory or other, like sending my D to a ballet intensive when she was injured because I thought it would be good for her and all she learned was that she hates pain.</p>
<p>There's just no knowing. So I think what people are saying to you calmom is keep a grain of salt next to the keyboard and remember that we are most of us doing our best and there are many ways to bring up kids and still have them turn out to be reasonably successful, reasonably happy, reasonably contributory adults. It's the term, IMHO, the humble part, that's important when interacting with other parents.</p>
<p>Calmom, I could not agree more with everything that you have posted here, and it is amusing to me the amount of overreaction happening to your thoughtful posts.</p>
<p>I always feel deeply sorry for kids whose parents jump in and helicopter parent them, because I think that neither those kids nor their parents understand how much that behavior isolates. Every time a parent fixes a problem for their student, it keeps that student from learning anything, except how to be helpless. Worse, it keeps them from working with the adminstrators that are specifically there to help them. If you call the Dean of Students every time your student needs something, YOU build a relationship with that Dean. Unfortunately, it is the relationship your student should have built with them.</p>
<p>In the most non judgemental way, I just have to ask, Calmom, do you think your son might have remained in college with more help through the rough time that obviously caused him to leave before graduating?</p>
<p>Theotherside, You are not reading what anyone is saying here, are you? Least of all Alumother's honest and thoughtful last post.</p>
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Geez, if my mom or dad had called up a prof or administrator at my college, I would probably have wanted to dig a hole and bury myself from the embarrassment.
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<p>I thought marite said her son was 10....
I wouldn't be embarrassed. If I don't get results when necessary, someone else can get them for me.</p>
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I always feel deeply sorry for kids whose parents jump in and helicopter parent them, because I think that neither those kids nor their parents understand how much that behavior isolates. Every time a parent fixes a problem for their student, it keeps that student from learning anything, except how to be helpless. Worse, it keeps them from working with the adminstrators that are specifically there to help them. If you call the Dean of Students every time your student needs something, YOU build a relationship with that Dean. Unfortunately, it is the relationship your student should have built with them.
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<p>Why would a student build a relationship with a Dean? It's not like the Dean is going to remember their name anyway. I've had classes where professors don't remember any students name. What if the administrators don't help the students like in asmith's posts?</p>
<p>Why would a student build a relationship with a Dean? It's not like the Dean is going to remember their name anyway.</p>
<p>False Assumption.</p>
<p>It's not a false assumption. I thought River Phoenix died??</p>
<p>Alumother wrote, "Look, one thing I've learned about parenting is that it is somewhat of a mystery. We all make our choices and follow our values but it's something of a Rube Goldberg machine. You can't always know what is going to come out the other end."</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more. As the parent of identical twins ... genetically the same and raised presumably in the same environment ... two things astound me: </p>
<p>-- How much they are alike as adults, and </p>
<p>-- How different they are temperamentally as adults.</p>
<p>I've been thinking about this more. I actually kind of felt bad about my post because I don't think we should have a pile-on - but thanks for the nice words Garland. Another thing that can make this all so individual is the hard-wiring issue I brought up earlier. Those of us who are tough-as-nails may have tough-as-nails kids who thrive from being thrown into the deep end earlier. Those of us who are sensitive may feel the same characteristic in our kids and respond. I know shyness and ability to thrive under authoritarianism have both been shown to be genetic attributes. So not only are there several ways that may work to bring up any one child, there are lot and lots of children with different makeups</p>
<p>It's not a false assumption. I thought River Phoenix died??</p>
<p>I know the president and one of the deans of my school (and they know my names). College is the best time for students to build connections - networking with professors and of course other students is the whole point behind paying the big bucks.</p>
<p>Good for you. Maybe you go to a small school.</p>
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<p>calmom: you know... that's actually what I do, too. I'm a proud member of the Let-them-make-their-choices party, and I belong to the radical wing of the party: my kids even make their educational decisions from quite an early age (choice of school, homeschooling etc). </p>
<p>But. They make their choices when they are ready to make them, not a tiny moment earlier. You do not know when a kid is ready, I do not know, and definitely the government does not know. Only the kid knows. </p>
<p>So, yes, when I hear from a 15-year-old "Mom, they didn't let me... I think it's a mistake or a bureaucracy glitch, but I couldn't explain them..." - I go to "them" and try at least to make sure that it's not a miscommunication. Because I know that the same kid handled lots of red-tape situations himself, and if he asks for my help - he is not ready to handle this one.</p>
<p>And each kid is ready at a different age. The communication skills can be taught? To everybody? To the same extent, at the same age, with the same effort required? Come on. Tell that to the parents of aspies...</p>
<p>It has nothing to do with the ability to live independently. Our D would never dream of "building a relationship" with Dean or any other official, and she has a couple of C's in her transcript due to her reluctance to contact a professor and clear a misunderstanding... That's our introvert, that's her personality, and we did not try to raise her to be somebody else. </p>
<p>Oh yeah, maybe other parents do a better job of raising their kids (in fact, I don't think I am "raising" mine). Especially - in the "socialization" department. But somehow my bad parenting didn't prevent D from getting her Bachelor's at 19 and living on her own since then (I guess, she takes on adult responsibilities all the time, I wouldn't know). And she is capable of giving some getting-to-desired-class or arranging-a-test-out tips to her extroverted friends, too.</p>
<p>And if she calls and asks for help - I will know she really needs it. I will not tell her to deal with the consequences... Illogical? I don't think so.</p>
<p>Garland, I did read the post you mentioned by alumother, and I thought it was excellent - I think you are jumping to conclusions (incidently, a common helicopter parent trait!) to assume my comments automatically included every post after calmom's.</p>
<p>Someone else said, "Why would a student build a relationship with a Dean? It's not like the Dean is going to remember their name anyway." Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of Dean's certification letters? Forming relationships with adults who will be able to help them in their life both at college and beyond is a very important part of college - who do you think writes those recommendation letters for law, medical, biz school? And how impressive is it when that letter comes from a Vice President or the Dean of Students or the college President? </p>
<p>Why take away from them the opportunity to connect with the very people that can do the most for them? We, as adults, have excellent problem solving skills because we learned how to solve our problems - why is it such a contentious and political issue to say that we need to teach these great skills of ours TO college students, rather than using these great skills ON BEHALF OF of our students.</p>
<p>***To my fellow posters: before responding to "the other side", I suggest you scan through their previous postings to get an accurate picture of their concern about parental over-involvement , and the frequency they deal with that issue in their postings. I make no other comment except to say that my kid will get an extra hug from me today.</p>